NFL Draft Talk
Thought we could make a general draft discussion thread with the Combine approaching. Just a few pre combine thoughts I had while digging in on some early evaluations;
- There could be as many as 7 cornerbacks going in the 1st round. While I don't see any elite, Patrick Surtain type's, the position is deep and talented. I'd be pretty upset if the Vikings took a cornerback, but there will be some talented corners still on the board when our pick comes up.
- I absolutely love this group of linebackers. Drew Sanders, Noah Sewell, and the Simpson kid from Clemson all look like really good prospects who offer some scheme flexibility. Hicks won't be back for us and they still have a decision to make on Kendricks. It's possible all 3 of these guys are still on the board at #23 and would be really good picks.
- I've got Jalin Hyatt as my #1 WR in this class. He would be an absolute home run pick for us and give us a deep threat dimension this offense is sorely lacking. I'm going to be very curious how teams separate Johnston, Addison, Zay Flowers, and Smith-Njigba after that.
- Not a great crop of defensive lineman. I think we can find some scheme specific bodies with our mid round picks but otherwise need to be active in free agency. We are going to continue running this crap 3-4 and IMO all three down lineman positions need to be upgraded. A couple guys I'll be watching at the combine are Ika the nose tackle from Baylor (LSU transfer), Gervon Baxter from Florida, and Keeanu Benton from Wisconsin. All bigger bodies that fit our scheme and to me defensive line is the biggest position of need on this roster.
- My early overrated list: Tyree Wilson, Myles Murphy, Bryan Bresee, and Paris Johnson.
- I'd be shocked to see the Vikings draft a QB. If we trade down and add more picks, then taking someone like Hendon Hooker and stashing him away for a year makes a lot of sense. I think it's far more likely we add a Sam Darnold in free agency or trade for someone like Zac Wilson on the low end.
@"supafreak84" said:@"MaroonBells" said:@"supafreak84" said:@"TBro" said:@"supafreak84" said: Richardson just ran a 4.44/40! Damn
He definitely cemented his selection in the top 5 in my opinion. Bryce Young measuring smaller than Kyler Murray will hurt his positioning. I could see him falling out of the top 10. Darnell Washington just ran a 4.65 at just under 6'7". If all the good receivers were gone at 23, I would have no problem taking him with our 1st assuming we are done with the ISJ experiment. He would be huge in our running game and a compliment to TJ in the passing game. He's a freak.
Bryce Young came in at 5'10" and 204 pounds, and you know that's a beefed up 204 pounds specifically to alleviate some of his size concerns. I'm guessing normal Bryce probably plays at least ten pounds lighter on game days. I could not under any circumstances take a guy that small in the top 10. I look at it this way, if Will Levis played for Alabama and Bryce Young played for Kentucky, Levis would be the unquestioned top overall pick in the draft and Young would essentially be Seneca Wallace.Washington is impressive. I'm happy the Vikings traded for Hockenson, but this is the best collective TE group in over a decade according to Jeremiah and I go back to wondering if making the trade was wisest decision considering we could have likely drafted a very productive TE this year and had him on a rookie contract. Food for thought considering our cap situation and that we now need to extend Hockenson on a big money deal along with Jefferson.
Agree with you on Levis and Young, but not on the TE. Trading for Hock was a good move, and a necessary one after ISJ went down. And anyone who drafts a TE in the 1st round deserves what they get.
It's a tough one because I do really like Hockenson and what he was able to bring to our offense down the stretch, but in hindsight would things have gone any differently last season if we had Mundt starting as far as how far we went? I would say no, and we would have lost to the Giants regardless. The problem is now we have to pay Hockenson, and the Lions traded him specifically because they didn't want to have to pay him and invest big money on that position. Paying Hockenson is now going to coincide with having to pay Jefferson, Cousins, Hunter, and Darrisaw shortly down the road and our cap is going to continue to be tapped out. With the quality and depth at the TE position in this draft, it might have been wiser to hold tight (no pun intended) and use one of our top picks at that position and have that player on a rookie contract moving forward. It's about the allocation of dollars and I'm not so sure how we played this was ultimately the best option.I still contend that Michael Mayer is probably the best TE I've ever seen at the college level. He won't wow you athletically like a Kellen Winslow Jr or Vernon Davis, but the guy is just different and has been a beast since his freshman year. Kincaid, Washington and Musgrove are all upper-level prospects. Laporta and the Purdue kid also showed well.
I agree that this is a good TE class, but that argues more for waiting on one than drafting one high. (Not that we have any business drafting a TE at all).Nothing against Mayer, but every year there are tight ends folks convince themselves are different...and worthy of a 1st rounder. And every year it's the same story.
Two years ago it was Kyle Pitts. Generational they said. In 2 years he has 3 TDs. Of the last 12 TEs taken in the 1st round all 12 have failed to live up to their draft slot IMO. The only one you can make an argument for is actually Hockenson. But that didn't happen until he was traded to a team with a good QB. And even then, is that what you expect from an #8 overall pick? Raquon Smith was an 8th overall pick. Christian McCaffrey was an 8th overall pick. The answer is no. I would argue the Bills got better value in that draft from Dawson Knox, who was taken 88 picks later.
What's more, the three best TEs in the NFL (Kelce, Kittle and Andrews) were not 1st rounders. They were taken in the 3rd, 5th and 3rd rounds respectively.
@"MaroonBells" said:@"supafreak84" said:@"MaroonBells" said:@"supafreak84" said:@"TBro" said:@"supafreak84" said: Richardson just ran a 4.44/40! Damn
He definitely cemented his selection in the top 5 in my opinion. Bryce Young measuring smaller than Kyler Murray will hurt his positioning. I could see him falling out of the top 10. Darnell Washington just ran a 4.65 at just under 6'7". If all the good receivers were gone at 23, I would have no problem taking him with our 1st assuming we are done with the ISJ experiment. He would be huge in our running game and a compliment to TJ in the passing game. He's a freak.
Bryce Young came in at 5'10" and 204 pounds, and you know that's a beefed up 204 pounds specifically to alleviate some of his size concerns. I'm guessing normal Bryce probably plays at least ten pounds lighter on game days. I could not under any circumstances take a guy that small in the top 10. I look at it this way, if Will Levis played for Alabama and Bryce Young played for Kentucky, Levis would be the unquestioned top overall pick in the draft and Young would essentially be Seneca Wallace.Washington is impressive. I'm happy the Vikings traded for Hockenson, but this is the best collective TE group in over a decade according to Jeremiah and I go back to wondering if making the trade was wisest decision considering we could have likely drafted a very productive TE this year and had him on a rookie contract. Food for thought considering our cap situation and that we now need to extend Hockenson on a big money deal along with Jefferson.
Agree with you on Levis and Young, but not on the TE. Trading for Hock was a good move, and a necessary one after ISJ went down. And anyone who drafts a TE in the 1st round deserves what they get.
It's a tough one because I do really like Hockenson and what he was able to bring to our offense down the stretch, but in hindsight would things have gone any differently last season if we had Mundt starting as far as how far we went? I would say no, and we would have lost to the Giants regardless. The problem is now we have to pay Hockenson, and the Lions traded him specifically because they didn't want to have to pay him and invest big money on that position. Paying Hockenson is now going to coincide with having to pay Jefferson, Cousins, Hunter, and Darrisaw shortly down the road and our cap is going to continue to be tapped out. With the quality and depth at the TE position in this draft, it might have been wiser to hold tight (no pun intended) and use one of our top picks at that position and have that player on a rookie contract moving forward. It's about the allocation of dollars and I'm not so sure how we played this was ultimately the best option.I still contend that Michael Mayer is probably the best TE I've ever seen at the college level. He won't wow you athletically like a Kellen Winslow Jr or Vernon Davis, but the guy is just different and has been a beast since his freshman year. Kincaid, Washington and Musgrove are all upper-level prospects. Laporta and the Purdue kid also showed well.
I agree that this is a good TE class, but that argues more for waiting on one than drafting one high. (Not that we have any business drafting a TE at all).Nothing against Mayer, but every year there are tight ends folks convince themselves are different...and worthy of a 1st rounder. And every year it's the same story.
Two years ago it was Kyle Pitts. Generational they said. In 2 years he has 3 TDs. Of the last 12 TEs taken in the 1st round all 12 have failed to live up to their draft slot IMO. The only one you can make an argument for is actually Hockenson. But that didn't happen until he was traded to a team with a good QB. And even then, is that what you expect from an #8 overall pick? Raquon Smith was an 8th overall pick. Christian McCaffrey was an 8th overall pick. The answer is no. I would argue the Bills got better value in that draft from Dawson Knox, who was taken 88 picks later.
What's more, the three best TEs in the NFL (Kelce, Kittle and Andrews) were not 1st rounders. They were taken in the 3rd, 5th and 3rd rounds respectively.
I agree with you and those are great points, which again begs the question...if we can get good tight end production from someone later on in the draft (as league history has shown), then why did we trade two premium draft picks and are about to lock ourselves into a big money deal on Hockenson when we have huge deficiencies on defense, an unsettled QB situation, and need to make JJ the highest paid WR in league history? I just think it's bad money allocation and when you are thinking of making a big trade like that, your scouting department needs to step in and go, "hey before we make this move, understand that this is the deepest TE draft crop in over a decade and we can get premium production on a rookie contract if we just hold tight." I think it all goes back to having a proper understanding of just where you are as a football team and we made a bold move when regardless we were not going to beat Philly, Dallas, or SF last season...and we ended up losing to the Giants at home anyways. I really like Hockenson, don't get me wrong, but the better play would have probably been to roll with Mundt until ISJ returned for the playoffs and then take advantage of the depth this draft class presented at the TE position along with the cap savings.
I think with TJH, it was about as close to a sure thing as one can expect in the NFL. Where as a draft pick is -- well, not as sure.
I got no issue with acquiring proven talent like that and I dont think they overpaid for the guy picks wise.
Once (if) they can land themselves a true WR2 to pair with JJ and TJH? Thats the makings of a really nice offense for some time to come. Especially when they might be starting a very young QB in a season or two - those are nice surrounds. Chicago would love to have that kinda talent around Fields, and may not ever achieve it.
Vikings get hands-on during quarterback combine interviewsNot only does Kevin O'Connell prefer a face-to-face evaluation process, he also got footballs into prospects' hands.INDIANAPOLIS – Kentucky quarterback Will Levis told a gripping tale Friday morning about his meeting this week with Vikings brass inside a Lucas Oil Stadium suite.
Levis, considered one of the top passers in this year's draft along with Alabama's Bryce Young, Ohio State's C.J. Stroud and Florida's Anthony Richardson, said the Vikings had him hold a football during their interview.
"They just kind of had you have a football in your hands," Levis said, "which is nice because I like having something to kind of play around with. I don't know if it's because they wanted to see how big my hands were or something."
The Vikings are meeting with the draft's quarterbacks — the same as they did last year — while also again trying to negotiate new contract terms with quarterback Kirk Cousins, who is only signed through 2023.
Coach Kevin O'Connell said he values face-to-face interactions and evaluations of draft prospects, as some coaches, such as the Packers' Matt LaFleur, stay away from Indy. Regarding quarterbacks, O'Connell prefers an annual study of veterans and rookies alike because he said he never knows when he'll cross paths with a player.
"Just out of habit, I do that every single year," O'Connell said earlier this week. "The guys in the draft, free agency, just looking at the landscape of the league, and then all of the quarterbacks on our roster and how we feel about our position. There's a reason I feel so strongly about Kirk."
https://www.startribune.com/minnesota-vikings-scouting-combine-interviews-quarterback-gophers-jordan-howden-terell-smith/600256124/
@"purplefaithful" said: I think with TJH, it was about as close to a sure thing as one can expect in the NFL. Where as a draft pick is -- well, not as sure.I got no issue with acquiring proven talent like that and I dont think they overpaid for the guy picks wise.
Once (if) they can land themselves a true WR2 to pair with JJ and TJH? Thats the makings of a really nice offense for some time to come. Especially when they might be starting a very young QB in a season or two - those are nice surrounds. Chicago would love to have that kinda talent around Fields, and may not ever achieve it.
I have no complaints about Hockenson the player, it's the overall strategy, timing, and the fact that we are now going to have to allocate money we really don't have to retain him to justify our trade investment when we have such a long list of other needs and could have taken advantage of this deep pool of TE's in this draft. I know what happened and why they made the move, which I'd bet money was the Wilf's and Kwesi thought we were an impact player away from a Super Bowl when that was never the case. With or without Hockenson, we were arguably the fourth or fifth best team in the conference and anybody paying attention knew our record was fool's gold. It all goes back to money allocation and roster evaluation, which IMO has been sorely lacking under the new regime. The better play would have been to not make the trade, retain our draft picks, draft a TE this year on a rookie contract, and allocate the big money we will be spending on Hockenson towards a piss poor defense in need of talent upgrades at every level.
And Chicago is going to get put plenty of talent around Justin Fields. Top overall pick in the draft this year and most cap money to spend in the league....so yeah, the Bears are going to be just fine and building for the long term around Fields while I have no idea what the Vikings are doing. It will be interesting to see the state of both franchises in two years. The big difference is the Bears had a plan while the Vikings were saddled with trying to extend the Spielman/Zimmer Super Bowl window when in reality it was already closed. I expect the Bears and Lions to both be better positioned then the Vikings in two years.
We have to fix cap, get rid of decline players this spring, hope some idiots make dumb trades with us and get ready for2024, or we will be average as usual. Hope this new regime can accomplish this or we are screwed and they will be gone if the Wilfs have learned anything.
Let's assume that you leave the offense generally alone, and you make major upgrades on defense, and increase the numbers of 3 and outs by the other team. All of a sudden the offense spends more time on the field. Will Cousins change and become a dual threat like Josh Allen? No, but that offense begins to put up more points. The trouble isn't Cousins, its the defense. Fix that, and Cousins will be allowed to shine. JMHO.
Vikings' Kevin O'Connell praises Anthony Richardson, Zay Flowers"What a presence," O'Connell said of his first impression of Anthony Richardson.As they watched wide receivers run 40-yard dashes at the NFL Combine, O'Connell was asked if there are any players he's come to like since the pre-draft event began nearly a week ago.
"I told Kwesi , our general manager, we had a stretch of about ten straight the other night – I don't know which night it was – but I literally was standing there clapping as these kids were walking out one after another," O'Connell said.
"The personalities. You could feel the competitiveness. You could feel the football ownership we're looking for. You could tell they loved football. I don't know who selects the order, I don't know who selects even the players that we're talking to. When I jump into this process I'm normally pretty far behind everybody else, but I said, 'Shoot, that's about eight or ten guys in a row that I would love to have on the Minnesota Vikings.'"
Right about then, Boston College wide receiver Zay Flowers ran his 40-yard dash.
"We talked to Zay," said O'Connell. "I know his head coach at Boston College, Jeff Hafley, really well and he's a big fan of his. Zay was phenomenal. He was great, very confident. We talked a little bit about what he was going to and he in fact was right about what he was going to run, so I'm happy for Zay."
When NFL Network displayed a graphic comparing Flowers to Seahawks wide receiver Tyler Lockett, O'Connell agreed and explained what makes Flowers intriguing.
"There's your comp right there, and when you turn on the tape you see basically that. Regardless of where they are, what you're doing with them, whether you're handing the ball off to them, throwing the ball, you feel that explosiveness on the field any time they touch it," said O'Connell. "And then the ability to just run, whether it's in the move area, vertical, slot game, outside...those are valuable guys that you can do a lot of things with as a play-caller, especially when you're trying to make things easier on the quarterback position. A lot of times the way you do that is having versatility in the skillsets around those guys."
O'Connell also confirmed a report that Minnesota met with Florida quarterback Anthony Richardson.
"We had a few of those guys in. I always try to meet them as they come in the room because it gives everybody good bearing on hey, I"m a little over 6'5'', so as players come in... I'll tell you what, I wanted to get back to my seat in a hurry when he came in," O'Connell said of Richardson.
"But what a presence. I thought he did a great job, not only seeing him throw today but seeing him go through this whole process all the way through the pro day and the rest of it. He seems like a great kid."
https://www.si.com/fannation/bringmethesports/vikings/vikings-kevin-oconnell-praises-anthony-richardson-zay-flowers
@"MaroonBells" said:@"supafreak84" said:@"TBro" said:@"supafreak84" said: Richardson just ran a 4.44/40! Damn
He definitely cemented his selection in the top 5 in my opinion. Bryce Young measuring smaller than Kyler Murray will hurt his positioning. I could see him falling out of the top 10. Darnell Washington just ran a 4.65 at just under 6'7". If all the good receivers were gone at 23, I would have no problem taking him with our 1st assuming we are done with the ISJ experiment. He would be huge in our running game and a compliment to TJ in the passing game. He's a freak.
Bryce Young came in at 5'10" and 204 pounds, and you know that's a beefed up 204 pounds specifically to alleviate some of his size concerns. I'm guessing normal Bryce probably plays at least ten pounds lighter on game days. I could not under any circumstances take a guy that small in the top 10. I look at it this way, if Will Levis played for Alabama and Bryce Young played for Kentucky, Levis would be the unquestioned top overall pick in the draft and Young would essentially be Seneca Wallace.Washington is impressive. I'm happy the Vikings traded for Hockenson, but this is the best collective TE group in over a decade according to Jeremiah and I go back to wondering if making the trade was wisest decision considering we could have likely drafted a very productive TE this year and had him on a rookie contract. Food for thought considering our cap situation and that we now need to extend Hockenson on a big money deal along with Jefferson.
Agree with you on Levis and Young, but not on the TE. Trading for Hock was a good move, and a necessary one after ISJ went down. And anyone who drafts a TE in the 1st round deserves what they get.
I like TJ, but was it a necessary move? I think it was pretty evident early on that this team had issues, despite our good record at the time, most fans had no illusions of 2022 ending in a SB appearance for our team. I dont think it was necessary, but its not often you can grab a pro bowl level player at any position for a day 2 pick with 2 years to play on a rookie deal so with that said I still liked the move, sure that day 2 pick could have likely netted a nice TE prospect and then have 3 years before having to look at any extension vs just 1 year left on TJs deal, but we have the added comfort of a known commodity in TJ vs who the hell knows on any TE would could have taken with that pick. I doubt we would have had as nice a season had they not brought TJ in, but in the rearview mirror view, that likely wouldnt have been a bad thing either, except... no TJ and yet another position added to the list of must fills.And there then would have been a possibility of them retaining ISj, which IMO would be a mistake based on what we have seen in his first 4 years.
We are bemoaning what we gave up for TJH, who played really well with the Vikings, and ignoring what we gave up for ISJ who never did anything with the Vikings. I'll take the TJH deal over the ISJ deal any time.
I know some here want to draft John Michael Schmitz in the first. I'll freak out if we do. First, he's a Center. Second, he barely breaks 300 lbs. He will get tossed around worse than GB - another pick I truly hated.
Jaxon Smith-Njigba did look really good. But he will be slow. He knows that, so he did not run at the Combine. Ignore whatever number he posts on his pro day. THE Ohio State University track is fake fast. Still, I would not mind that pick if we keep our first. But probably better to trade it if we can get a good return. (Just hope other teams don't see KAO as an easy mark and offer only shit deals because of his draft trades last year.)
@"dadevike" said: We are bemoaning what we gave up for TJH, who played really well with the Vikings, and ignoring what we gave up for ISJ who never did anything with the Vikings. I'll take the TJH deal over the ISJ deal any time.I know some here want to draft John Michael Schmitz in the first. I'll freak out if we do. First, he's a Center. Second, he barely breaks 300 lbs. He will get tossed around worse than GB - another pick I truly hated.
Jaxon Smith-Njigba did look really good. But he will be slow. He knows that, so he did not run at the Combine. Ignore whatever number he posts on his pro day. THE Ohio State University track is fake fast. Still, I would not mind that pick if we keep our first. But probably better to trade it if we can get a good return. (Just hope other teams don't see KAO as an easy mark and offer only shit deals because of his draft trades last year.)
After watching more of JSN, I've come around on him. He's not especially fast, but I've since learned that's not what he's about. He's about being smart, quick and slippery. And his combine marks in the shuttle and 3-cone bear that out.
Still, we have to add two starters to the defense (or at least one big one) before I'm willing to go offense with this pick.
@"MaroonBells" said:@"dadevike" said: We are bemoaning what we gave up for TJH, who played really well with the Vikings, and ignoring what we gave up for ISJ who never did anything with the Vikings. I'll take the TJH deal over the ISJ deal any time.I know some here want to draft John Michael Schmitz in the first. I'll freak out if we do. First, he's a Center. Second, he barely breaks 300 lbs. He will get tossed around worse than GB - another pick I truly hated.
Jaxon Smith-Njigba did look really good. But he will be slow. He knows that, so he did not run at the Combine. Ignore whatever number he posts on his pro day. THE Ohio State University track is fake fast. Still, I would not mind that pick if we keep our first. But probably better to trade it if we can get a good return. (Just hope other teams don't see KAO as an easy mark and offer only shit deals because of his draft trades last year.)
After watching more of JSN, I've come around on him. He's not especially fast, but I've since learned that's not what he's about. He's about being smart, quick and slippery. And his combine marks in the shuttle and 3-cone bear that out.Still, we have to add two starters to the defense (or at least one big one) before I'm willing to go offense with this pick.
I would anticipate they try to sign two impact (depending on how you define impact pieces) pieces to add to the defense in FA. That opens up the draft to go in a myriad of directions.
@"MaroonBells" said:@"dadevike" said: We are bemoaning what we gave up for TJH, who played really well with the Vikings, and ignoring what we gave up for ISJ who never did anything with the Vikings. I'll take the TJH deal over the ISJ deal any time.I know some here want to draft John Michael Schmitz in the first. I'll freak out if we do. First, he's a Center. Second, he barely breaks 300 lbs. He will get tossed around worse than GB - another pick I truly hated.
Jaxon Smith-Njigba did look really good. But he will be slow. He knows that, so he did not run at the Combine. Ignore whatever number he posts on his pro day. THE Ohio State University track is fake fast. Still, I would not mind that pick if we keep our first. But probably better to trade it if we can get a good return. (Just hope other teams don't see KAO as an easy mark and offer only shit deals because of his draft trades last year.)
After watching more of JSN, I've come around on him. He's not especially fast, but I've since learned that's not what he's about. He's about being smart, quick and slippery. And his combine marks in the shuttle and 3-cone bear that out.Still, we have to add two starters to the defense (or at least one big one) before I'm willing to go offense with this pick.
I will never understand how people can overlook the quickness drills and focus on 40 times when evaluating football players. Give me the quick acceleration, quick direction changes, and I will give you football players, top end speed is for track and really isn't all that rare.
@"JimmyinSD" said:@"MaroonBells" said:@"dadevike" said: We are bemoaning what we gave up for TJH, who played really well with the Vikings, and ignoring what we gave up for ISJ who never did anything with the Vikings. I'll take the TJH deal over the ISJ deal any time.I know some here want to draft John Michael Schmitz in the first. I'll freak out if we do. First, he's a Center. Second, he barely breaks 300 lbs. He will get tossed around worse than GB - another pick I truly hated.
Jaxon Smith-Njigba did look really good. But he will be slow. He knows that, so he did not run at the Combine. Ignore whatever number he posts on his pro day. THE Ohio State University track is fake fast. Still, I would not mind that pick if we keep our first. But probably better to trade it if we can get a good return. (Just hope other teams don't see KAO as an easy mark and offer only shit deals because of his draft trades last year.)
After watching more of JSN, I've come around on him. He's not especially fast, but I've since learned that's not what he's about. He's about being smart, quick and slippery. And his combine marks in the shuttle and 3-cone bear that out.Still, we have to add two starters to the defense (or at least one big one) before I'm willing to go offense with this pick.
I will never understand how people can overlook the quickness drills and focus on 40 times when evaluating football players. Give me the quick acceleration, quick direction changes, and I will give you football players, top end speed is for track and really isn't all that rare.
I think it's all part of it. Even the 40 time is important for receivers who are going to play a deep role and the corners who are going to cover them. For example, if Jalen Hyatt had run a slower than expected 40, it would hurt his stock a lot more than a JSN.
@"MaroonBells" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"MaroonBells" said:@"dadevike" said: We are bemoaning what we gave up for TJH, who played really well with the Vikings, and ignoring what we gave up for ISJ who never did anything with the Vikings. I'll take the TJH deal over the ISJ deal any time.I know some here want to draft John Michael Schmitz in the first. I'll freak out if we do. First, he's a Center. Second, he barely breaks 300 lbs. He will get tossed around worse than GB - another pick I truly hated.
Jaxon Smith-Njigba did look really good. But he will be slow. He knows that, so he did not run at the Combine. Ignore whatever number he posts on his pro day. THE Ohio State University track is fake fast. Still, I would not mind that pick if we keep our first. But probably better to trade it if we can get a good return. (Just hope other teams don't see KAO as an easy mark and offer only shit deals because of his draft trades last year.)
After watching more of JSN, I've come around on him. He's not especially fast, but I've since learned that's not what he's about. He's about being smart, quick and slippery. And his combine marks in the shuttle and 3-cone bear that out.Still, we have to add two starters to the defense (or at least one big one) before I'm willing to go offense with this pick.
I will never understand how people can overlook the quickness drills and focus on 40 times when evaluating football players. Give me the quick acceleration, quick direction changes, and I will give you football players, top end speed is for track and really isn't all that rare.
I think it's all part of it. Even the 40 time is important for receivers who are going to play a deep role and the corners who are going to cover them. For example, if Jalen Hyatt had run a slower than expected 40, it would hurt his stock a lot more than a JSN.
It needs to be weighted imo and the forty is way down that list. None of those positions you mentioned benefit from those fast 40 times if they don't have the burst, agility, or the strength in close areas though.
@"JimmyinSD" said:@"MaroonBells" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"MaroonBells" said:@"dadevike" said: We are bemoaning what we gave up for TJH, who played really well with the Vikings, and ignoring what we gave up for ISJ who never did anything with the Vikings. I'll take the TJH deal over the ISJ deal any time.I know some here want to draft John Michael Schmitz in the first. I'll freak out if we do. First, he's a Center. Second, he barely breaks 300 lbs. He will get tossed around worse than GB - another pick I truly hated.
Jaxon Smith-Njigba did look really good. But he will be slow. He knows that, so he did not run at the Combine. Ignore whatever number he posts on his pro day. THE Ohio State University track is fake fast. Still, I would not mind that pick if we keep our first. But probably better to trade it if we can get a good return. (Just hope other teams don't see KAO as an easy mark and offer only shit deals because of his draft trades last year.)
After watching more of JSN, I've come around on him. He's not especially fast, but I've since learned that's not what he's about. He's about being smart, quick and slippery. And his combine marks in the shuttle and 3-cone bear that out.Still, we have to add two starters to the defense (or at least one big one) before I'm willing to go offense with this pick.
I will never understand how people can overlook the quickness drills and focus on 40 times when evaluating football players. Give me the quick acceleration, quick direction changes, and I will give you football players, top end speed is for track and really isn't all that rare.
I think it's all part of it. Even the 40 time is important for receivers who are going to play a deep role and the corners who are going to cover them. For example, if Jalen Hyatt had run a slower than expected 40, it would hurt his stock a lot more than a JSN.
It needs to be weighted imo and the forty is way down that list. None of those positions you mentioned benefit from those fast 40 times if they don't have the burst, agility, or the strength in close areas though.
Right, but it's all important. While I would agree that burst, agility and strength might be underrated and the 40 time overrated, I think it should all be taken in context. For example, burst, agility and strength don't mean much either if you can't outrun a 4.6 safety.
@"MaroonBells" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"MaroonBells" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"MaroonBells" said:@"dadevike" said: We are bemoaning what we gave up for TJH, who played really well with the Vikings, and ignoring what we gave up for ISJ who never did anything with the Vikings. I'll take the TJH deal over the ISJ deal any time.I know some here want to draft John Michael Schmitz in the first. I'll freak out if we do. First, he's a Center. Second, he barely breaks 300 lbs. He will get tossed around worse than GB - another pick I truly hated.
Jaxon Smith-Njigba did look really good. But he will be slow. He knows that, so he did not run at the Combine. Ignore whatever number he posts on his pro day. THE Ohio State University track is fake fast. Still, I would not mind that pick if we keep our first. But probably better to trade it if we can get a good return. (Just hope other teams don't see KAO as an easy mark and offer only shit deals because of his draft trades last year.)
After watching more of JSN, I've come around on him. He's not especially fast, but I've since learned that's not what he's about. He's about being smart, quick and slippery. And his combine marks in the shuttle and 3-cone bear that out.Still, we have to add two starters to the defense (or at least one big one) before I'm willing to go offense with this pick.
I will never understand how people can overlook the quickness drills and focus on 40 times when evaluating football players. Give me the quick acceleration, quick direction changes, and I will give you football players, top end speed is for track and really isn't all that rare.
I think it's all part of it. Even the 40 time is important for receivers who are going to play a deep role and the corners who are going to cover them. For example, if Jalen Hyatt had run a slower than expected 40, it would hurt his stock a lot more than a JSN.
It needs to be weighted imo and the forty is way down that list. None of those positions you mentioned benefit from those fast 40 times if they don't have the burst, agility, or the strength in close areas though.
Right, but it's all important. While I would agree that burst, agility and strength might be underrated and the 40 time overrated, I think it should all be taken in context. For example, burst, agility and strength don't mean much either if you can't outrun a 4.6 safety.
i dont value that top end speed, you just dont see that many plays where top end speed are nearly as critical. I am fine with 10 to 15 yard gains off quicks and strength all day long vs that once every few games that somebody actually breaks one. Hell TEs never have top end speed, but we still see plenty of chances for them to score from 40 out or more. I just really dont think its nearly as critical as the emphasis put on it by most football fans or even analysts. maybe its burned into me by how many speed burner receivers I have seen that never amount to shit in the NFL because they cant create separation, or DBs that are fast as hell, but cant cover worth a shit because they look like a freight train trying to change direction and get up to speed.
@"JimmyinSD" said:@"MaroonBells" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"MaroonBells" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"MaroonBells" said:@"dadevike" said: We are bemoaning what we gave up for TJH, who played really well with the Vikings, and ignoring what we gave up for ISJ who never did anything with the Vikings. I'll take the TJH deal over the ISJ deal any time.I know some here want to draft John Michael Schmitz in the first. I'll freak out if we do. First, he's a Center. Second, he barely breaks 300 lbs. He will get tossed around worse than GB - another pick I truly hated.
Jaxon Smith-Njigba did look really good. But he will be slow. He knows that, so he did not run at the Combine. Ignore whatever number he posts on his pro day. THE Ohio State University track is fake fast. Still, I would not mind that pick if we keep our first. But probably better to trade it if we can get a good return. (Just hope other teams don't see KAO as an easy mark and offer only shit deals because of his draft trades last year.)
After watching more of JSN, I've come around on him. He's not especially fast, but I've since learned that's not what he's about. He's about being smart, quick and slippery. And his combine marks in the shuttle and 3-cone bear that out.Still, we have to add two starters to the defense (or at least one big one) before I'm willing to go offense with this pick.
I will never understand how people can overlook the quickness drills and focus on 40 times when evaluating football players. Give me the quick acceleration, quick direction changes, and I will give you football players, top end speed is for track and really isn't all that rare.
I think it's all part of it. Even the 40 time is important for receivers who are going to play a deep role and the corners who are going to cover them. For example, if Jalen Hyatt had run a slower than expected 40, it would hurt his stock a lot more than a JSN.
It needs to be weighted imo and the forty is way down that list. None of those positions you mentioned benefit from those fast 40 times if they don't have the burst, agility, or the strength in close areas though.
Right, but it's all important. While I would agree that burst, agility and strength might be underrated and the 40 time overrated, I think it should all be taken in context. For example, burst, agility and strength don't mean much either if you can't outrun a 4.6 safety.
i dont value that top end speed, you just dont see that many plays where top end speed are nearly as critical. I am fine with 10 to 15 yard gains off quicks and strength all day long vs that once every few games that somebody actually breaks one. Hell TEs never have top end speed, but we still see plenty of chances for them to score from 40 out or more. I just really dont think its nearly as critical as the emphasis put on it by most football fans or even analysts. maybe its burned into me by how many speed burner receivers I have seen that never amount to shit in the NFL because they cant create separation, or DBs that are fast as hell, but cant cover worth a shit because they look like a freight train trying to change direction and get up to speed.
Well if you really want a 4.7 receiver, there are plenty to choose from in the XFL.
@"MaroonBells" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"MaroonBells" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"MaroonBells" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"MaroonBells" said:@"dadevike" said: We are bemoaning what we gave up for TJH, who played really well with the Vikings, and ignoring what we gave up for ISJ who never did anything with the Vikings. I'll take the TJH deal over the ISJ deal any time.I know some here want to draft John Michael Schmitz in the first. I'll freak out if we do. First, he's a Center. Second, he barely breaks 300 lbs. He will get tossed around worse than GB - another pick I truly hated.
Jaxon Smith-Njigba did look really good. But he will be slow. He knows that, so he did not run at the Combine. Ignore whatever number he posts on his pro day. THE Ohio State University track is fake fast. Still, I would not mind that pick if we keep our first. But probably better to trade it if we can get a good return. (Just hope other teams don't see KAO as an easy mark and offer only shit deals because of his draft trades last year.)
After watching more of JSN, I've come around on him. He's not especially fast, but I've since learned that's not what he's about. He's about being smart, quick and slippery. And his combine marks in the shuttle and 3-cone bear that out.Still, we have to add two starters to the defense (or at least one big one) before I'm willing to go offense with this pick.
I will never understand how people can overlook the quickness drills and focus on 40 times when evaluating football players. Give me the quick acceleration, quick direction changes, and I will give you football players, top end speed is for track and really isn't all that rare.
I think it's all part of it. Even the 40 time is important for receivers who are going to play a deep role and the corners who are going to cover them. For example, if Jalen Hyatt had run a slower than expected 40, it would hurt his stock a lot more than a JSN.
It needs to be weighted imo and the forty is way down that list. None of those positions you mentioned benefit from those fast 40 times if they don't have the burst, agility, or the strength in close areas though.
Right, but it's all important. While I would agree that burst, agility and strength might be underrated and the 40 time overrated, I think it should all be taken in context. For example, burst, agility and strength don't mean much either if you can't outrun a 4.6 safety.
i dont value that top end speed, you just dont see that many plays where top end speed are nearly as critical. I am fine with 10 to 15 yard gains off quicks and strength all day long vs that once every few games that somebody actually breaks one. Hell TEs never have top end speed, but we still see plenty of chances for them to score from 40 out or more. I just really dont think its nearly as critical as the emphasis put on it by most football fans or even analysts. maybe its burned into me by how many speed burner receivers I have seen that never amount to shit in the NFL because they cant create separation, or DBs that are fast as hell, but cant cover worth a shit because they look like a freight train trying to change direction and get up to speed.
Well if you really want a 4.7 receiver, there are plenty to choose from in the XFL.
dont need to go that low, there are plenty that run quality shuttle and cone times and still have decent downfield speed, honestly I doubt there are any 4.7 guys that have quality quicks and agility times.
Daniel Jeremiah's top 50: 2023 NFL Draft prospect rankings 3.0
Just released his updated post combine top 50. I'm still shocked by Bryce Young
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