Sam Has To Mess The Bed

I'm rolling with JJM next year. Sam could win MVP and I'm rolling with JJM.

Who are the people who are stressing out about this? The plan has never been to resign Darnold. Things would have to end up being so amazingly well to consider it. We just aren’t going to resign Darnold midseason.

This is not an issue that I would want the front office or coaches/players to even have on their radar right now.

Concentrate on potential extensions for KOC/FLO if they want.

Its wk4 (and for anyone that wants to listen) we just beat the 49'ers, Texans and Packers @ Lamblow y'all better celebrate it.

medaille wrote:
Who are the people who are stressing out about this? The plan has never been to resign Darnold. Things would have to end up being so amazingly well to consider it. We just aren’t going to resign Darnold midseason.

well the plan wasnt for JJM to miss most of camp and the whole season of practice reps and clean up snaps, all good plans are flexible, SD was supposed to take the pressure off starting JJM if he wasnt ready, unfortunately we wont know if he is ready this year now so the plan is out the window and we need a new plan. the most logical plan would be to resign SD if we can to contract that gives him a little financial security, and give the Vikings two things, first they need to know they have a fall back at QB1 if for whatever reason JJM is not ready to go next year, and second the ability to move that fall back plan if JJM does indeed meet expectations to start next year.

I reiterate what I've said before: it's premature to have these discussions about extending Sam. It just is. We are 4 games in on his 17 game (or more) "Last Chance Redemption" tour.

If we could extend him for two years, that would be ideal, probably, because that would give us a theoretical top starter (him or JJM) to back up the actual starter. And then hand the reins off to JJM after 3 years (one of which was lost altogether due to injury).

This is a Cadillac problem to have. It's just premature to discuss it. In the meantime, sit back, buckle in and enjoy the ride.

Montana Tom wrote:
I reiterate what I've said before: it's premature to have these discussions about extending Sam. It just is. We are 4 games in on his 17 game (or more) "Last Chance Redemption" tour.

If we could extend him for two years, that would be ideal, probably, because that would give us a theoretical top starter (him or JJM) to back up the actual starter. And then hand the reins off to JJM after 3 years (one of which was lost altogether due to injury).

This is a Cadillac problem to have. It's just premature to discuss it. In the meantime, sit back, buckle in and enjoy the ride.

So, hypothetical for you ( which is really all we do here since none of us have any control what so ever over what happens with this team and its players) assuming things continue to look promising with Sam.... at what point do you pull the trigger on an extension? the longer you wait the more it will cost you, if his camp is even willing to look at a moderate money 2 year deal at that point. I have to think any extension talks should be taking place mid mid to late october, anything past that and you run the risk of him deciding to wait and test FA.

I admit I was very bearish on this season, I was thinking 6 or 7 wins tops, possibly worse, but after seeing how we did to date, and looking at how the rest of the schedule lays out, I could realistically see a 13-14 win season if they stay healthy and can continue to find growth on both sides of the ball. With that outlook I dont think its prudent to wait to long if they actually want him to come back.

JimmyinSD wrote:

So,  hypothetical for you ( which is really all we do here since none of us have any control what so ever over what happens with this team and its players)  assuming things continue to look promising with Sam.... at what point do you pull the trigger on an extension?  the longer you wait the more it will cost you, if  his camp is even willing to look at a moderate money 2 year deal at that point.  I have to think any extension talks should be taking place mid mid to late october,  anything past that and you run the risk of him deciding to wait and test FA.

I admit I was very bearish on this season,  I was thinking 6 or 7 wins tops, possibly worse,  but after seeing how we did to date, and looking at how the rest of the schedule lays out,  I could realistically see a 13-14 win season if they stay healthy and can continue to find growth on both sides of the ball.  With that outlook I dont think its prudent to wait to long if they actually want him to come back.

Yep. We play Detroit after the bye but then it's four average-to-bad defenses in a row, before we get the Bears near Thanksgiving. If we're confident Sam will continue to play well then I'm sure people in the FO are having conversations. For me the last piece would be seeing him bounce back from a bad game. Once I see that I'm good with what the universe gives.

As was mentioned, if Sam keeps playing well this is a Cadillac problem to have.

If the team rolls with JJM over Darnold in 2025, that says all the more about their enormous belief in him. Which is awesome.

Good times in Vikingland!

medaille wrote:
Who are the people who are stressing out about this?  The plan has never been to resign Darnold.  Things would have to end up being so amazingly well to consider it.  We just aren’t going to resign Darnold midseason.

Exactly.  If you look at how the Vikings have managed their cap in recent years, they were setting themselves up for a window with a rookie QB.  We didn't move on from Cousins and his cap hit to draft a rookie QB and then re-sign another veteran QB to a multi-year deal eating up that future cap space and let our rookie QB languish on the bench.

Now maybe Darnold's play and JJ's injury changed that plan...  Maybe not.  I still think we thank Darnold for his time and let him go get paid by someone else after this season sans a Super Bowl win.  If JJ didn't look like a franchise guy before the injury, then I think the team would be more open to extending Darnold.  But Kevin was gushing over him and I think they want to get him ready to lead this team in 2025 and beyond.

In my opinion there is no need to extend him now and I would even wait until the end of January. But he doesn't need to win the Superbowl or MVP. If he gets us to the Superbowl he will end a 48 year drought that a line of QBs couldn't do, including two Hall of Famers, and Im not counting Cousins. So he will be, without a doubt, a hero. He will be one of only 3 Viking QBs to play in a Superbowl.

MAD GAINZ wrote:

Exactly.  If you look at how the Vikings have managed their cap in recent years, they were setting themselves up for a window with a rookie QB.  We didn't move on from Cousins and his cap hit to draft a rookie QB and then re-sign another veteran QB to a multi-year deal eating up that future cap space and let our rookie QB languish on the bench.

Now maybe Darnold's play and JJ's injury changed that plan...  Maybe not.  I still think we thank Darnold for his time and let him go get paid by someone else after this season sans a Super Bowl win.  If JJ didn't look like a franchise guy before the injury, then I think the team would be more open to extending Darnold.  But Kevin was gushing over him and I think they want to get him ready to lead this team in 2025 and beyond.

 It didn't change the plan.  Unless Darnold takes us to the Super Bowl and possibly only if he wins it does he return.  KOC saw enough of JJ to know he's the real deal, and our entire financial structure is built around a rookie QB contract, not a good QB who costs a shitload of money.

Waterboy wrote:
 It didn't change the plan.  Unless Darnold takes us to the Super Bowl and possibly only if he wins it does he return.  KOC saw enough of JJ to know he's the real deal, and our entire financial structure is built around a rookie QB contract, not a good QB who costs a shitload of money.

LOL, whats a "shitload", nobody has said to offer him a deal that would reset the market or anything close, I think the only money thats been discussed would be in the low to mid 30s, and would have to include the teams ability to trade him if JJM takes the job. I dont think anybody is assuming it would be SDs job going forward just because he has a new deal with the Vikes, its simply not wanting to put all our eggs in one basket without a competent back up plan. Its not just the JJM that is part of the plan, its also includes a lot of talent that was signed around this window and if JJM is not to the level of where SD is currently then you are risking wasting years of other players until JJM is ready. We all liked what we saw and heard regarding JJM, but it would be pretty presumptuous to assume that he will be ready to take the reigns of a team that right now looks like it is poised for a big run.

JimmyinSD wrote:

LOL, whats a "shitload", nobody has said to offer him a deal that would reset the market or anything close,  I think the only money thats been discussed would be in the low to mid 30s,  and would have to include the teams ability to trade him if JJM takes the job.  I dont think anybody is assuming it would be SDs job going forward just because he has a new deal with the Vikes,  its simply not wanting to put all our eggs in one basket without a competent back up plan.  Its not just the JJM that is part of the plan,  its also includes a lot of talent that was signed around this window and if JJM is not to the level of where SD is currently then you are risking wasting years of other players until JJM is ready.  We all liked what we saw and heard regarding JJM, but it would be pretty presumptuous to assume that he will be ready to take the reigns of a team that right now looks like it is poised for a big run.

IF Darnold (at wk 12, 13 or in the playoffs) looks elite, then I agree; you have to at least have that conversation with his agent. 

You have to. 

What is in the Vikings best interest is all that matters:
1). An elite SD for another 1 or 2 years? 
- Have an open competition in Spring vs JJM for starter? 

2). Or gambling on JJM and let an elite QB walk out the door? 

I agree (and have been preaching) it's presumptuous to assume JJM is ready to take the reigns of a potential SB contending team. Not after 1 pre-season game and a first year thats all about re-hab. Its not a normal redshirt year for a rook qb. 

But back to my original post in this thread, these are not issues that the staff/franchise should wrestle with in October. It's just too early. 

I'm just going to enjoy the present for now :)

MAD GAINZ wrote:

Exactly.  If you look at how the Vikings have managed their cap in recent years, they were setting themselves up for a window with a rookie QB.  We didn't move on from Cousins and his cap hit to draft a rookie QB and then re-sign another veteran QB to a multi-year deal eating up that future cap space and let our rookie QB languish on the bench.

Now maybe Darnold's play and JJ's injury changed that plan...  Maybe not.  I still think we thank Darnold for his time and let him go get paid by someone else after this season sans a Super Bowl win.  If JJ didn't look like a franchise guy before the injury, then I think the team would be more open to extending Darnold.  But Kevin was gushing over him and I think they want to get him ready to lead this team in 2025 and beyond.

That's a lot of faith to put into a guy who never took a snap in the regular season. Look, we all know KOC loves him. I think most of us are confident we have our franchise QB in JJ. I know I am. But what if we're wrong? It happens. What if he's Mitch Trubisky, who looked great his first preseason? I think good leadership has to factor that in.

I just don't think you mess around with the QB position. If he's still the leading MVP candidate in December and January, I think you have to have the extension conversation. You could have a lot of egg on your face if you let him walk to a team where he brings Wes Phillips with him to run a version of KOC's offense. And then McCarthy just isn't as sharp, or needs more time, or gets hurt again. He's still only 21 years old. And it's not like it's either/or. JJ is our future franchise QB no matter what happens. 

The money is the big complication. But I'm hearing $50M thrown around. He won't get that. Darnold, the Vikings and every team in the NFL knows a big part of his success is due to KOC and the team around him. Mayfield got $33M and I think Sam would get something similar. And that's something we should consider....if'n he continues playing like this.

JimmyinSD wrote:

LOL, whats a "shitload", nobody has said to offer him a deal that would reset the market or anything close,  I think the only money thats been discussed would be in the low to mid 30s,  and would have to include the teams ability to trade him if JJM takes the job.  I dont think anybody is assuming it would be SDs job going forward just because he has a new deal with the Vikes,  its simply not wanting to put all our eggs in one basket without a competent back up plan.  Its not just the JJM that is part of the plan,  its also includes a lot of talent that was signed around this window and if JJM is not to the level of where SD is currently then you are risking wasting years of other players until JJM is ready.  We all liked what we saw and heard regarding JJM, but it would be pretty presumptuous to assume that he will be ready to take the reigns of a team that right now looks like it is poised for a big run.

To me, that looks like an insulting contract to Darnold.  Why insult a guy who’s playing well and offer him a contract that he won’t accept?  If anything, wait until the end of the season and pay him what he's worth.  I think if Darnold waits until the end of the season, he’s probably getting the same contract that all the other guys (except Mayfield for some reason) have been getting.  He’ll be getting something in that Danny Dimes/Trevor Lawrence region.  If I was Darnold, I certainly wouldn’t accept any extension that could trade me somewhere.  I’d want full control over picking the team I went to.

I think the best chance that Darnold has for staying here is if JJM’s knee looks worse than better around league season start in march.  None of the good teams offered him a contract roughly what he’s worth and he doesn’t want to go to a bad team.  I could see him agreeing to another year for like $42ish in another prove it year.

well if we really wanted him to stay as the fallback plan for 2025 in case JJM cant go... there is the tag route, 42 mill gets a franchise tag, 36M would likely cover a transition tag. These are both 1 year deals that are out of his control which is why his camp would possibly be open to a 2 year extension at slightly less with more guaranteed, especially if you dont wait until the year is over.

everybody keeps gushing about KOCs system and play calling, I would imagine that there are GMs out there that are assuming a big part of SDs success is the system and his surrounding cast, and would maybe not be backing up the 50 mill bus as quick as some assume.

StickierBuns wrote:

And how many teams need a new QB for next year? Several. It just takes 2 teams to be interested in Darnold to jack up his yearly salary. No trade compensation, only a salary. No risk of drafting a guy. He's going to be attractive.

Like I said, if the Vikings want him, the tag route is always a way to ensure a 1 year rental, or if Team SD want a little more they could take a 2 year extension with more guaranteed money, with the Vikings having outs, it doesnt need to mean that he cant have SOME veto power to a trade, but really its not like the Vikings are without cards in this game. Of course if he were to sign a monster deal elsewhere, that would maybe get us a compensatory pick, but I would suspect that would get negated by any free agent splashes we would be making, so I would feel better with SD on a tradeable deal, that way we would be more assured of compensation for when he leaves.

Honestly, I'm too busy enjoying the ride right now to give a rat's ass what happens in the offseason. Granted, it's going to be a big topic of discussion, but I'm on too big a high right now to contemplate what might happen 5-6 months from now.

JimmyinSD wrote:

LOL, whats a "shitload", nobody has said to offer him a deal that would reset the market or anything close,  I think the only money thats been discussed would be in the low to mid 30s,  and would have to include the teams ability to trade him if JJM takes the job.  I dont think anybody is assuming it would be SDs job going forward just because he has a new deal with the Vikes,  its simply not wanting to put all our eggs in one basket without a competent back up plan.  Its not just the JJM that is part of the plan,  its also includes a lot of talent that was signed around this window and if JJM is not to the level of where SD is currently then you are risking wasting years of other players until JJM is ready.  We all liked what we saw and heard regarding JJM, but it would be pretty presumptuous to assume that he will be ready to take the reigns of a team that right now looks like it is poised for a big run.

Kirk was only paid $45MM.  If Darnold continues on this track, his contract will be similar or more.  If he doesn't match Kirk's performance.  Why would you re-sign Darnold.  Bottom line, if he performs so far above expectations, he's going to get paid for it.  McCarthy can do that for four more years without the bubble bursting.  Big difference.

Waterboy wrote:

Kirk was only paid $45MM.  If Darnold continues on this track, his contract will be similar or more.  If he doesn't match Kirk's performance.  Why would you re-sign Darnold.  Bottom line, if he performs so far above expectations, he's going to get paid for it.  McCarthy can do that for four more years without the bubble bursting.  Big difference.

I am not against JJM, I was very happy with the pick, but he has proven nothing, absolutely nothing that suggests that the team be turned over to him without a solid fall back plan in place. He will get very little growth in terms of live bullets. If its not SD then the team will need to be looking for another bridge type QB to fill SDs role next year, because we dont have that in our QB2 or QB3 currently on the roster. Theres a big difference in liking what weve seen to date from JJM and knowing that he is ready to take the QB1 role without a safety net.

worst case scenario, you franchise tag SD, if JJM beats him out and you are convinced that he can handle the load, you look to trade SD to a team that he is willing to sign long term with and you sign him to that deal and then trade him and his contract ( you cant trade a player on the franchise tag directly)

Ppattersaur wrote:
... and bounce back from it in order to consider extending him.

I've been thinking about this a lot recently-- Would it be smart to extend Darnold now to something shorter and more manageable, versus potentially trying to outbid other teams for him on the open market in the offseason?

I've seen the question brought up here and my thought has been, let's just wait. There's no rush, it's only been 4 games, JJM looked great... It makes sense. But if he'd sign today for something like 2 years, $40M with an understanding we may trade him after year 1, would that be such a bad thing? It could wind up looking like a huge bargain as soon as a month from now. For reference, Baker had one good season in Tampa and signed a 3-year, $100M extension this past offseason. In other words, a two-year deal might be off the table come March. So there are pros to doing a deal now for sure.

But I realized if we signed him today and then the next week he has a dud, there would be absolute panic in the streets. It would be a very uncomfortable wait until the next game and then who knows what would happen. It's too scary to think about.

So I've decided I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other-- extend Sam soon or wait it out-- But I do feel like we HAVE to see Sam have a bad game (turnovers, lose, sacks, the whole 9) and come back the next week looking like Our Sam in order for me to fully have faith. Once he does that, I'm at peace with any decision. I should note I say this all as a huge, antsy, JJ McCarthy fan who would be excited to roll with him as QB1 next year as well.

How about settling for a bad 1st half & a comeback victory…!?  ;) :angel: