Guru Mock 2.0
Six days out from showtime and its time for another mock. With teams now setting their draft boards and strategizing their plans a little bit more is coming into light regarding the Vikings and others teams plans. Here is a mock combining my own opinions along with some of what I am hearing.
TRADE 1(9) via SEA - Derrick Stingley Jr. / CB LSU: While I don't necessarily believe the Vikings will prioritize moving up the board in the 1st round, they understand positional value their own needs, and the potential of both Sauce Gardner and Derrick Stingley. The Vikings end up biting the bullet moving 1(12), 3(77), and 6(184) for 1(9) and 4(109). This is basically equal to the trade chart and in a weak class you shouldn't need to pay a premium to move up. Stingley when healthy (his medicals are good to go) is an immediate starter at CB with the upside of a #1 CB capable of shadowing a teams best receiver in the NFL. On film there are not many players who play the ball better in the air and Stingley's 2019 and 2020 (when on the field) film is by the best of an CB in the past few years. The question is his consistency and ability to improve on in-breaking routes. With P2 as a mentor this is just a good situation for everyone and the Vikings add the talent they sorely are lacking on the outside. You need to bet on upside at premium positions and that is the right play here in my opinion.
2(46) - Logan Hall / DE Houston: A personal favorite of mine, Hall seems to be graded highly in the eyes of NFL teams and may not end up making it to pick #46. Regardless, I think the Vikings are going to have an opportunity to grab a high-end pass rusher in this spot and are unlikely to move back. Hall is a front 4 disruptor and has the size to line up at 5T in the base defense. He is explosive and knows how to get after the QB. With NFL coaching he can even be better since he had a tendency to play high in college which should be correctable. Currently the Vikings lack explosiveness in their front-3 in the base. Hall brings a different element to the group and should be able to play regular snaps immediately. In the nickel he can easily line up at either DE spot or 3T. The flexibility there is an added bonus.
4 (109) via SEA - Calvin Austin III / WR Memphis: If the 1st round falls a bit differently I could envision the Vikings considering a WR early, but this value just feels a bit better. The Vikings WR room is already in good shape with Jefferson, Thielen, and Osbourne holding down 11 personnel. They also still think highly of ISM as a depth player and deep threat. What they lack is a gadget player who can succeed with manufactured touches. Austin is a small yet explosive player who still has the ability to line up around the field. The Rams liked to challenge defenses horizontally and using a player like Austin on end-arounds, mesh concepts, and crossers brings a new element to the group. Think of recent Rams pick Tutu Atwell. Austin also can slot in at PR which will allow Osbourne to focus on being the primary slot receiver.
5 (156) - DeAngelo Malone / EDGE Western Kentucky: As noted above the Vikings could easily take an EDGE rusher in round 2 or even in the 1st if they stick at pick #12. This late there is still value with the depth at the position although you get limited versatility. Malone is a thinner guy who is more of a situational 3-4 OLB but can bring value in a rotation early. He does a good job in the base getting to the ball carrier and has surprising explosiveness when closing on the QB. Everyone this late in the draft has flaws and Malone's are questions around if he can really add much weight and his odd rush execution plans. He should be able to make the 53-man roster but will end up being a rotational piece with Wonnum. Maybe he develops into more.
6 (191) - Malcolm Rodriguez / ILB Oklahoma State: Draft crush of mine right here. Teams like the Rams and Broncos have found a not often talked about inefficiency in the later rounds of drafts. Undersized players with good tape and undervalued positions. Rodriguez one tape is one of the best ILBs in this draft class, he is just extremely undersized by NFL standards. When you watch him on film he has not speed or movement limitations and finds the ball carrier extremely well. In a 3-4 defense size at the ILB spots can often be hidden. The Vikings lack depth behind Kendricks & Hicks and I believe enough in Rodriguez that I believe he may be an eventual NFL starter. His skillset is also extremely valuable on special teams.
6 (192) - Zach Tom / C Wake Forest: At some point the Vikings will add more competition along the O-line. Tom has lined up across the line at Wake Forest and actually was their LT this past year. He doesn't have the length nor size to play OT in the NFL but he projects well for center. His testing numbers and explosiveness suggest he is a good bet to develop on an NFL roster. The Vikings lack center depth behind Bradbury and although Tom won't be able to start in the near-term, he does have some traits that suggest he could be better in the NFL when put in a zone scheme where he'll be more natural.
7 (251) - Damarion Williams / CB Houston: Draft fans will be more familiar with all-around Houston CB Marcus Jones, but Damarion Williams has an opportunity to compete in camp as nickel CB depth. He is a smaller player and lacks length, but that can be hidden on the inside. With Stingley in the 1st the Vikings have strong depth on the outside between Stingley, P2, Dantzler, and Kris Boyd. Behind Chandon Sullivan they lack depth at nickel and Williams would provide solid competition for Perry Nickerson.
@"Geoff Nichols" said:@"purplefaithful" said:@"Geoff Nichols" said:@"StickyBun" said:@"MaroonBells" said:@"Geoff Nichols" said:@"MaroonBells" said:@"purplefaithful" said: Spelly got very lucky trading down last year...Viking nation would have been in flames if he wasn't able to land Darrisaw.
I'll say this - if they move up for Stingley? Its because they have the best insights of any NFL team on him, right on their coaching staff.
That said, am curious to see how this new team executes their 1st nfl draft. A trade-up would shock the heck out of me. IT hasn't been the Viking way very often.
I'm curious too. This is his first time running a draft room. Rick was a master of maneuvering around a draft to optimize value. Moving up for players like Dalvin Cook, Harrison Smith, and Tyler Conklin, to name a few, and moving down when the value wasn't there. Darrisaw is a good example. But also moving down to take Gladney (who should still be on the team), a move that netted DJ Wonnum and KJ Osborne. Or the move down a couple times to take Alexander Mattison with the last pick on day two, because he was the target and there was no need to take him at our original slot. That netted traded assets, along with Oli Udoh.Love our new GM, but the fact that he was zero experience doing any of this has me a little concerned.
I wouldn't be too concerned since there are enough tenured members of the FO/personnel staff to keep him honest. The questions I have are more methodical. Will they be a team that is ultra aggressive, will they truly be a BPA team, or will they manipulate the board to fill their needs? We may not even know until there are 2-3 drafts under his belt.The Browns and 49ers typically tend to stay put in round 1. Grigson did the same with the Colts. So I do wonder if that will kind of be their initial M.O. But anything is possible.
Where were those tenured members when KAM was eating his own knee caps last night?
Yeah, not much oversight of KAM on that move. There's no way to look at that move from a comp standpoint that would show any other than the Vikings got taken.
I don't necessarily agree with that. People keep referencing outdates trade charts and say the Viking got ran. Any analytics focused trade chart has the Vikings winning by 10-13%. There is just a lot of preconceived bias that trading back is awful since the Vikings have done it so much.Ultimately trade charts are all in a vacuum but at the end of the day I personally think the Vikings felt if they got even value for their pick they'd move back and avoid taking a wide receiver. So long-term the question will be is Cine + a high 3rd + moving up 1/2 a round in the 2nd worth passing on Hamilton. I personally would say, yes. But it all will need to be looked at in the long-run. I personally had Cine right there with Hamilton, who I thought was overrated.
Or...Was Cine + high 3rd + moving up 1/2 round in the 2nd worth passing on Jameson Williams + letting a division rival draft him instead?
I would have been perfectly fine with Williams @ 12
On talent alone, no. But take WR off the table for a moment since they eliminated it as an option or they would have taken Williams. Its comparing apples to oranges.
I dont get this line of thinking...If the talent was there, dont you take it? Look, Jameson isnt most likely going to be the next Randy Moss - but the talent was thereEspecially with the future cap hit and age of AT?
I think they got lost in the #'s and common sense went out the window. Yes, I am butt hurt over yesterday, po'd even. A whiny little b#&*h about it.
@"Geoff Nichols" said:@"purplefaithful" said:@"Geoff Nichols" said:@"StickyBun" said:@"MaroonBells" said:@"Geoff Nichols" said:@"MaroonBells" said:@"purplefaithful" said: Spelly got very lucky trading down last year...Viking nation would have been in flames if he wasn't able to land Darrisaw.
I'll say this - if they move up for Stingley? Its because they have the best insights of any NFL team on him, right on their coaching staff.
That said, am curious to see how this new team executes their 1st nfl draft. A trade-up would shock the heck out of me. IT hasn't been the Viking way very often.
I'm curious too. This is his first time running a draft room. Rick was a master of maneuvering around a draft to optimize value. Moving up for players like Dalvin Cook, Harrison Smith, and Tyler Conklin, to name a few, and moving down when the value wasn't there. Darrisaw is a good example. But also moving down to take Gladney (who should still be on the team), a move that netted DJ Wonnum and KJ Osborne. Or the move down a couple times to take Alexander Mattison with the last pick on day two, because he was the target and there was no need to take him at our original slot. That netted traded assets, along with Oli Udoh.Love our new GM, but the fact that he was zero experience doing any of this has me a little concerned.
I wouldn't be too concerned since there are enough tenured members of the FO/personnel staff to keep him honest. The questions I have are more methodical. Will they be a team that is ultra aggressive, will they truly be a BPA team, or will they manipulate the board to fill their needs? We may not even know until there are 2-3 drafts under his belt.The Browns and 49ers typically tend to stay put in round 1. Grigson did the same with the Colts. So I do wonder if that will kind of be their initial M.O. But anything is possible.
Where were those tenured members when KAM was eating his own knee caps last night?
Yeah, not much oversight of KAM on that move. There's no way to look at that move from a comp standpoint that would show any other than the Vikings got taken.
I don't necessarily agree with that. People keep referencing outdates trade charts and say the Viking got ran. Any analytics focused trade chart has the Vikings winning by 10-13%. There is just a lot of preconceived bias that trading back is awful since the Vikings have done it so much.Ultimately trade charts are all in a vacuum but at the end of the day I personally think the Vikings felt if they got even value for their pick they'd move back and avoid taking a wide receiver. So long-term the question will be is Cine + a high 3rd + moving up 1/2 a round in the 2nd worth passing on Hamilton. I personally would say, yes. But it all will need to be looked at in the long-run. I personally had Cine right there with Hamilton, who I thought was overrated.
Or...Was Cine + high 3rd + moving up 1/2 round in the 2nd worth passing on Jameson Williams + letting a division rival draft him instead?
I would have been perfectly fine with Williams @ 12
On talent alone, no. But take WR off the table for a moment since they eliminated it as an option or they would have taken Williams. Its comparing apples to oranges.
Taking Williams or any other available player other than Hamilton out of the equation is extremely charitable of you.If Williams turns out to be awesome I don’t think many will be as forgiving haha.
I guess drafting BPA is truly dead, if it ever really lived.
@"purplefaithful" said:@"Vikergirl" said: It's absolutely hilarious to me that the math people see this as a win and the others don't. Definitely a bizarre draft as far as talent goes and how it is going to play out. It is going to be interesting to watch the process. I am looking forward to seeing more.Well, you're a glutton for punishment then ;)
For me its more trepidation than anything...
Those guys have lost my trust in one fell swoop and I hope they win it back over time.
Nope I am not on the ledge. I am going to let it play out. There is a plan and it deserves a chance before freaking out. Getting additional picks because there are holes. They are going to be looking at seconds and thirds for surplus value. They might trade down again, difference is it's not for 7th round picks. To some it seems like madness but there is a method. It is their first draft, I will wait until it's finished to evaluate the whole thing.
@"purplefaithful" said:@"Geoff Nichols" said:@"purplefaithful" said:@"Geoff Nichols" said:@"StickyBun" said:@"MaroonBells" said:@"Geoff Nichols" said:@"MaroonBells" said:@"purplefaithful" said: Spelly got very lucky trading down last year...Viking nation would have been in flames if he wasn't able to land Darrisaw.
I'll say this - if they move up for Stingley? Its because they have the best insights of any NFL team on him, right on their coaching staff.
That said, am curious to see how this new team executes their 1st nfl draft. A trade-up would shock the heck out of me. IT hasn't been the Viking way very often.
I'm curious too. This is his first time running a draft room. Rick was a master of maneuvering around a draft to optimize value. Moving up for players like Dalvin Cook, Harrison Smith, and Tyler Conklin, to name a few, and moving down when the value wasn't there. Darrisaw is a good example. But also moving down to take Gladney (who should still be on the team), a move that netted DJ Wonnum and KJ Osborne. Or the move down a couple times to take Alexander Mattison with the last pick on day two, because he was the target and there was no need to take him at our original slot. That netted traded assets, along with Oli Udoh.Love our new GM, but the fact that he was zero experience doing any of this has me a little concerned.
I wouldn't be too concerned since there are enough tenured members of the FO/personnel staff to keep him honest. The questions I have are more methodical. Will they be a team that is ultra aggressive, will they truly be a BPA team, or will they manipulate the board to fill their needs? We may not even know until there are 2-3 drafts under his belt.The Browns and 49ers typically tend to stay put in round 1. Grigson did the same with the Colts. So I do wonder if that will kind of be their initial M.O. But anything is possible.
Where were those tenured members when KAM was eating his own knee caps last night?
Yeah, not much oversight of KAM on that move. There's no way to look at that move from a comp standpoint that would show any other than the Vikings got taken.
I don't necessarily agree with that. People keep referencing outdates trade charts and say the Viking got ran. Any analytics focused trade chart has the Vikings winning by 10-13%. There is just a lot of preconceived bias that trading back is awful since the Vikings have done it so much.Ultimately trade charts are all in a vacuum but at the end of the day I personally think the Vikings felt if they got even value for their pick they'd move back and avoid taking a wide receiver. So long-term the question will be is Cine + a high 3rd + moving up 1/2 a round in the 2nd worth passing on Hamilton. I personally would say, yes. But it all will need to be looked at in the long-run. I personally had Cine right there with Hamilton, who I thought was overrated.
Or...Was Cine + high 3rd + moving up 1/2 round in the 2nd worth passing on Jameson Williams + letting a division rival draft him instead?
I would have been perfectly fine with Williams @ 12
On talent alone, no. But take WR off the table for a moment since they eliminated it as an option or they would have taken Williams. Its comparing apples to oranges.
I dont get this line of thinking...If the talent was there, dont you take it? Look, Jameson isnt most likely going to be the next Randy Moss - but the talent was thereEspecially with the future cap hit and age of AT?
I think they got lost in the #'s and common sense went out the window. Yes, I am butt hurt over yesterday, po'd even. A whiny little b#&*h about it.
Deep breaths :)Breath in...hold...breath out.
Stop, Drop and roll.
or
How about Cine and Booth...does that make it a little better?
@"pattersaur" said:@"Geoff Nichols" said:@"purplefaithful" said:@"Geoff Nichols" said:@"StickyBun" said:@"MaroonBells" said:@"Geoff Nichols" said:@"MaroonBells" said:@"purplefaithful" said: Spelly got very lucky trading down last year...Viking nation would have been in flames if he wasn't able to land Darrisaw.
I'll say this - if they move up for Stingley? Its because they have the best insights of any NFL team on him, right on their coaching staff.
That said, am curious to see how this new team executes their 1st nfl draft. A trade-up would shock the heck out of me. IT hasn't been the Viking way very often.
I'm curious too. This is his first time running a draft room. Rick was a master of maneuvering around a draft to optimize value. Moving up for players like Dalvin Cook, Harrison Smith, and Tyler Conklin, to name a few, and moving down when the value wasn't there. Darrisaw is a good example. But also moving down to take Gladney (who should still be on the team), a move that netted DJ Wonnum and KJ Osborne. Or the move down a couple times to take Alexander Mattison with the last pick on day two, because he was the target and there was no need to take him at our original slot. That netted traded assets, along with Oli Udoh.Love our new GM, but the fact that he was zero experience doing any of this has me a little concerned.
I wouldn't be too concerned since there are enough tenured members of the FO/personnel staff to keep him honest. The questions I have are more methodical. Will they be a team that is ultra aggressive, will they truly be a BPA team, or will they manipulate the board to fill their needs? We may not even know until there are 2-3 drafts under his belt.The Browns and 49ers typically tend to stay put in round 1. Grigson did the same with the Colts. So I do wonder if that will kind of be their initial M.O. But anything is possible.
Where were those tenured members when KAM was eating his own knee caps last night?
Yeah, not much oversight of KAM on that move. There's no way to look at that move from a comp standpoint that would show any other than the Vikings got taken.
I don't necessarily agree with that. People keep referencing outdates trade charts and say the Viking got ran. Any analytics focused trade chart has the Vikings winning by 10-13%. There is just a lot of preconceived bias that trading back is awful since the Vikings have done it so much.Ultimately trade charts are all in a vacuum but at the end of the day I personally think the Vikings felt if they got even value for their pick they'd move back and avoid taking a wide receiver. So long-term the question will be is Cine + a high 3rd + moving up 1/2 a round in the 2nd worth passing on Hamilton. I personally would say, yes. But it all will need to be looked at in the long-run. I personally had Cine right there with Hamilton, who I thought was overrated.
Or...Was Cine + high 3rd + moving up 1/2 round in the 2nd worth passing on Jameson Williams + letting a division rival draft him instead?
I would have been perfectly fine with Williams @ 12
On talent alone, no. But take WR off the table for a moment since they eliminated it as an option or they would have taken Williams. Its comparing apples to oranges.
Taking Williams or any other available player other than Hamilton out of the equation is extremely charitable of you.If Williams turns out to be awesome I don’t think many will be as forgiving haha.
I guess drafting BPA is truly dead, if it ever really lived.
The issue with Williams was this - did the Vikings like him, Yes. They clearly didn't love him. If Williams would have shown up for his in-person top-30 visit at TCO it probably would have helped the cause.
@"pattersaur" said:@"Geoff Nichols" said:@"purplefaithful" said:@"Geoff Nichols" said:@"StickyBun" said:@"MaroonBells" said:@"Geoff Nichols" said:@"MaroonBells" said:@"purplefaithful" said: Spelly got very lucky trading down last year...Viking nation would have been in flames if he wasn't able to land Darrisaw.
I'll say this - if they move up for Stingley? Its because they have the best insights of any NFL team on him, right on their coaching staff.
That said, am curious to see how this new team executes their 1st nfl draft. A trade-up would shock the heck out of me. IT hasn't been the Viking way very often.
I'm curious too. This is his first time running a draft room. Rick was a master of maneuvering around a draft to optimize value. Moving up for players like Dalvin Cook, Harrison Smith, and Tyler Conklin, to name a few, and moving down when the value wasn't there. Darrisaw is a good example. But also moving down to take Gladney (who should still be on the team), a move that netted DJ Wonnum and KJ Osborne. Or the move down a couple times to take Alexander Mattison with the last pick on day two, because he was the target and there was no need to take him at our original slot. That netted traded assets, along with Oli Udoh.Love our new GM, but the fact that he was zero experience doing any of this has me a little concerned.
I wouldn't be too concerned since there are enough tenured members of the FO/personnel staff to keep him honest. The questions I have are more methodical. Will they be a team that is ultra aggressive, will they truly be a BPA team, or will they manipulate the board to fill their needs? We may not even know until there are 2-3 drafts under his belt.The Browns and 49ers typically tend to stay put in round 1. Grigson did the same with the Colts. So I do wonder if that will kind of be their initial M.O. But anything is possible.
Where were those tenured members when KAM was eating his own knee caps last night?
Yeah, not much oversight of KAM on that move. There's no way to look at that move from a comp standpoint that would show any other than the Vikings got taken.
I don't necessarily agree with that. People keep referencing outdates trade charts and say the Viking got ran. Any analytics focused trade chart has the Vikings winning by 10-13%. There is just a lot of preconceived bias that trading back is awful since the Vikings have done it so much.Ultimately trade charts are all in a vacuum but at the end of the day I personally think the Vikings felt if they got even value for their pick they'd move back and avoid taking a wide receiver. So long-term the question will be is Cine + a high 3rd + moving up 1/2 a round in the 2nd worth passing on Hamilton. I personally would say, yes. But it all will need to be looked at in the long-run. I personally had Cine right there with Hamilton, who I thought was overrated.
Or...Was Cine + high 3rd + moving up 1/2 round in the 2nd worth passing on Jameson Williams + letting a division rival draft him instead?
I would have been perfectly fine with Williams @ 12
On talent alone, no. But take WR off the table for a moment since they eliminated it as an option or they would have taken Williams. Its comparing apples to oranges.
Taking Williams or any other available player other than Hamilton out of the equation is extremely charitable of you.If Williams turns out to be awesome I don’t think many will be as forgiving haha.
I guess drafting BPA is truly dead, if it ever really lived.
BPA is mostly a myth IMO. Sure, teams in the top 5 will sometimes ignore need and pick the BPA, and then maybe again in the late rounds, but 9 times outta 10 teams try to fill needs.
@"Geoff Nichols" said:@"pattersaur" said:@"Geoff Nichols" said:@"purplefaithful" said:@"Geoff Nichols" said:@"StickyBun" said:@"MaroonBells" said:@"Geoff Nichols" said:@"MaroonBells" said:@"purplefaithful" said: Spelly got very lucky trading down last year...Viking nation would have been in flames if he wasn't able to land Darrisaw.
I'll say this - if they move up for Stingley? Its because they have the best insights of any NFL team on him, right on their coaching staff.
That said, am curious to see how this new team executes their 1st nfl draft. A trade-up would shock the heck out of me. IT hasn't been the Viking way very often.
I'm curious too. This is his first time running a draft room. Rick was a master of maneuvering around a draft to optimize value. Moving up for players like Dalvin Cook, Harrison Smith, and Tyler Conklin, to name a few, and moving down when the value wasn't there. Darrisaw is a good example. But also moving down to take Gladney (who should still be on the team), a move that netted DJ Wonnum and KJ Osborne. Or the move down a couple times to take Alexander Mattison with the last pick on day two, because he was the target and there was no need to take him at our original slot. That netted traded assets, along with Oli Udoh.Love our new GM, but the fact that he was zero experience doing any of this has me a little concerned.
I wouldn't be too concerned since there are enough tenured members of the FO/personnel staff to keep him honest. The questions I have are more methodical. Will they be a team that is ultra aggressive, will they truly be a BPA team, or will they manipulate the board to fill their needs? We may not even know until there are 2-3 drafts under his belt.The Browns and 49ers typically tend to stay put in round 1. Grigson did the same with the Colts. So I do wonder if that will kind of be their initial M.O. But anything is possible.
Where were those tenured members when KAM was eating his own knee caps last night?
Yeah, not much oversight of KAM on that move. There's no way to look at that move from a comp standpoint that would show any other than the Vikings got taken.
I don't necessarily agree with that. People keep referencing outdates trade charts and say the Viking got ran. Any analytics focused trade chart has the Vikings winning by 10-13%. There is just a lot of preconceived bias that trading back is awful since the Vikings have done it so much.Ultimately trade charts are all in a vacuum but at the end of the day I personally think the Vikings felt if they got even value for their pick they'd move back and avoid taking a wide receiver. So long-term the question will be is Cine + a high 3rd + moving up 1/2 a round in the 2nd worth passing on Hamilton. I personally would say, yes. But it all will need to be looked at in the long-run. I personally had Cine right there with Hamilton, who I thought was overrated.
Or...Was Cine + high 3rd + moving up 1/2 round in the 2nd worth passing on Jameson Williams + letting a division rival draft him instead?
I would have been perfectly fine with Williams @ 12
On talent alone, no. But take WR off the table for a moment since they eliminated it as an option or they would have taken Williams. Its comparing apples to oranges.
Taking Williams or any other available player other than Hamilton out of the equation is extremely charitable of you.If Williams turns out to be awesome I don’t think many will be as forgiving haha.
I guess drafting BPA is truly dead, if it ever really lived.
The issue with Williams was this - did the Vikings like him, Yes. They clearly didn't love him. If Williams would have shown up for his in-person top-30 visit at TCO it probably would have helped the cause.What's the story on that? I'm assuming he wouldn't just no show and there was a reason.
I still hate that we traded out of our spot to a division rival for Lewis Cine and a bag of peanuts. It's stupid, especially when the Lions parlayed our pick into Williams who was the top receiver on most teams board and would have been a top 5 pick without the injury. Lions added the top overall player in the draft (Hutchinson), the top receiver in the draft, while we got Cine. Every aspect of this trade sucks
@"supafreak84" said:@"Geoff Nichols" said:@"pattersaur" said:@"Geoff Nichols" said:@"purplefaithful" said:@"Geoff Nichols" said:@"StickyBun" said:@"MaroonBells" said:@"Geoff Nichols" said:@"MaroonBells" said:@"purplefaithful" said: Spelly got very lucky trading down last year...Viking nation would have been in flames if he wasn't able to land Darrisaw.
I'll say this - if they move up for Stingley? Its because they have the best insights of any NFL team on him, right on their coaching staff.
That said, am curious to see how this new team executes their 1st nfl draft. A trade-up would shock the heck out of me. IT hasn't been the Viking way very often.
I'm curious too. This is his first time running a draft room. Rick was a master of maneuvering around a draft to optimize value. Moving up for players like Dalvin Cook, Harrison Smith, and Tyler Conklin, to name a few, and moving down when the value wasn't there. Darrisaw is a good example. But also moving down to take Gladney (who should still be on the team), a move that netted DJ Wonnum and KJ Osborne. Or the move down a couple times to take Alexander Mattison with the last pick on day two, because he was the target and there was no need to take him at our original slot. That netted traded assets, along with Oli Udoh.Love our new GM, but the fact that he was zero experience doing any of this has me a little concerned.
I wouldn't be too concerned since there are enough tenured members of the FO/personnel staff to keep him honest. The questions I have are more methodical. Will they be a team that is ultra aggressive, will they truly be a BPA team, or will they manipulate the board to fill their needs? We may not even know until there are 2-3 drafts under his belt.The Browns and 49ers typically tend to stay put in round 1. Grigson did the same with the Colts. So I do wonder if that will kind of be their initial M.O. But anything is possible.
Where were those tenured members when KAM was eating his own knee caps last night?
Yeah, not much oversight of KAM on that move. There's no way to look at that move from a comp standpoint that would show any other than the Vikings got taken.
I don't necessarily agree with that. People keep referencing outdates trade charts and say the Viking got ran. Any analytics focused trade chart has the Vikings winning by 10-13%. There is just a lot of preconceived bias that trading back is awful since the Vikings have done it so much.Ultimately trade charts are all in a vacuum but at the end of the day I personally think the Vikings felt if they got even value for their pick they'd move back and avoid taking a wide receiver. So long-term the question will be is Cine + a high 3rd + moving up 1/2 a round in the 2nd worth passing on Hamilton. I personally would say, yes. But it all will need to be looked at in the long-run. I personally had Cine right there with Hamilton, who I thought was overrated.
Or...Was Cine + high 3rd + moving up 1/2 round in the 2nd worth passing on Jameson Williams + letting a division rival draft him instead?
I would have been perfectly fine with Williams @ 12
On talent alone, no. But take WR off the table for a moment since they eliminated it as an option or they would have taken Williams. Its comparing apples to oranges.
Taking Williams or any other available player other than Hamilton out of the equation is extremely charitable of you.If Williams turns out to be awesome I don’t think many will be as forgiving haha.
I guess drafting BPA is truly dead, if it ever really lived.
The issue with Williams was this - did the Vikings like him, Yes. They clearly didn't love him. If Williams would have shown up for his in-person top-30 visit at TCO it probably would have helped the cause.What's the story on that? I'm assuming he wouldn't just no show and there was a reason.
I still hate that we traded out of our spot to a division rival for Lewis Cine and a bag of peanuts. It's stupid, especially when the Lions parlayed our pick into Williams who was the top receiver on most teams board and would have been a top 5 pick without the injury. Lions added the top overall player in the draft (Hutchinson), the top receiver in the draft, while we got Cine. Every aspect of this trade sucks
You can't do anything about Hutchinson. But the Vikings planned at top-30 visit with Williams but he chose to prioritize other teams which then prevented MN from bringing him in. Scheduling conflicts can happen, just seems like Williams preferred elsewhere. If Garrett Wilson had made it to #12 the Vikings wouldn't have traded out. So Williams was either WR 2 or 3 on their board I imagine. They may have had Olave tied or higher.
@"Geoff Nichols" said:@"supafreak84" said:@"Geoff Nichols" said:@"pattersaur" said:@"Geoff Nichols" said:@"purplefaithful" said:@"Geoff Nichols" said:@"StickyBun" said:@"MaroonBells" said:@"Geoff Nichols" said:@"MaroonBells" said:@"purplefaithful" said: Spelly got very lucky trading down last year...Viking nation would have been in flames if he wasn't able to land Darrisaw.
I'll say this - if they move up for Stingley? Its because they have the best insights of any NFL team on him, right on their coaching staff.
That said, am curious to see how this new team executes their 1st nfl draft. A trade-up would shock the heck out of me. IT hasn't been the Viking way very often.
I'm curious too. This is his first time running a draft room. Rick was a master of maneuvering around a draft to optimize value. Moving up for players like Dalvin Cook, Harrison Smith, and Tyler Conklin, to name a few, and moving down when the value wasn't there. Darrisaw is a good example. But also moving down to take Gladney (who should still be on the team), a move that netted DJ Wonnum and KJ Osborne. Or the move down a couple times to take Alexander Mattison with the last pick on day two, because he was the target and there was no need to take him at our original slot. That netted traded assets, along with Oli Udoh.Love our new GM, but the fact that he was zero experience doing any of this has me a little concerned.
I wouldn't be too concerned since there are enough tenured members of the FO/personnel staff to keep him honest. The questions I have are more methodical. Will they be a team that is ultra aggressive, will they truly be a BPA team, or will they manipulate the board to fill their needs? We may not even know until there are 2-3 drafts under his belt.The Browns and 49ers typically tend to stay put in round 1. Grigson did the same with the Colts. So I do wonder if that will kind of be their initial M.O. But anything is possible.
Where were those tenured members when KAM was eating his own knee caps last night?
Yeah, not much oversight of KAM on that move. There's no way to look at that move from a comp standpoint that would show any other than the Vikings got taken.
I don't necessarily agree with that. People keep referencing outdates trade charts and say the Viking got ran. Any analytics focused trade chart has the Vikings winning by 10-13%. There is just a lot of preconceived bias that trading back is awful since the Vikings have done it so much.Ultimately trade charts are all in a vacuum but at the end of the day I personally think the Vikings felt if they got even value for their pick they'd move back and avoid taking a wide receiver. So long-term the question will be is Cine + a high 3rd + moving up 1/2 a round in the 2nd worth passing on Hamilton. I personally would say, yes. But it all will need to be looked at in the long-run. I personally had Cine right there with Hamilton, who I thought was overrated.
Or...Was Cine + high 3rd + moving up 1/2 round in the 2nd worth passing on Jameson Williams + letting a division rival draft him instead?
I would have been perfectly fine with Williams @ 12
On talent alone, no. But take WR off the table for a moment since they eliminated it as an option or they would have taken Williams. Its comparing apples to oranges.
Taking Williams or any other available player other than Hamilton out of the equation is extremely charitable of you.If Williams turns out to be awesome I don’t think many will be as forgiving haha.
I guess drafting BPA is truly dead, if it ever really lived.
The issue with Williams was this - did the Vikings like him, Yes. They clearly didn't love him. If Williams would have shown up for his in-person top-30 visit at TCO it probably would have helped the cause.What's the story on that? I'm assuming he wouldn't just no show and there was a reason.
I still hate that we traded out of our spot to a division rival for Lewis Cine and a bag of peanuts. It's stupid, especially when the Lions parlayed our pick into Williams who was the top receiver on most teams board and would have been a top 5 pick without the injury. Lions added the top overall player in the draft (Hutchinson), the top receiver in the draft, while we got Cine. Every aspect of this trade sucks
You can't do anything about Hutchinson. But the Vikings planned at top-30 visit with Williams but he chose to prioritize other teams which then prevented MN from bringing him in. Scheduling conflicts can happen, just seems like Williams preferred elsewhere. If Garrett Wilson had made it to #12 the Vikings wouldn't have traded out. So Williams was either WR 2 or 3 on their board I imagine. They may have had Olave tied or higher.Yes, just saying the Lions were fortunate for Hutchinson to fall in their laps then fleece the Vikings in a trade up for the top receiver on most teams boards. The day-after analysis by the media is not favorable of the move made by the Vikings. From this mornings GBN;
"And speaking of hard-to-figure trades. Minnesota, a team which one has to figure sees itself as ‘close’, had a chance to grab a potential impact player like WR Jameson Williams, S Kyle Hamilton, DT Jordan Davis or CB Trent McDuffie with the 12th pick, but instead traded down to the end of the round where they took S Lewis Cine, who is a nice player but hardly an impact type. And it might have made sense had they gotten a 2023 first rounder out of the deal, but in the end all they really got extra was a 3rd rounder this year."
Like I said, there was nothing good about this trade. We'll see how it all ultimately plays out but it almost sounds to me like the Vikings were pre-determined to trade down and stick with "the plan" even if that meant getting fleeced by a division rival. It just looks bad all the way around
I honestly believe the Vikings made the move with the idea of taking Wyatt, who they figured nobody was going to take and they could get a top 15 talent at a bargain draft position. They can talk all they want about Cine being their target, but I'm betting he was a fallback option and it surprised them when the Packers grabbed Wyatt a couple picks before them
@"supafreak84" said: I honestly believe the Vikings made the move with the idea of taking Wyatt, who they figured nobody was going to take and they could get a top 15 talent at a bargain draft position. They can talk all they want about Cine being their target, but I'm betting he was a fallback option and it surprised them when the Packers grabbed Wyatt a couple picks before themThe terms "trade down" and "target" should not be used in the same sentence. If you drop, especially 20 spots, trade down can only be associated with "hope". And as Marky mark says, hope aint a tactic.
@"JimmyinSD" said:Hope is the further defined as a group or tier of players and not specifically one guy.@"supafreak84" said: I honestly believe the Vikings made the move with the idea of taking Wyatt, who they figured nobody was going to take and they could get a top 15 talent at a bargain draft position. They can talk all they want about Cine being their target, but I'm betting he was a fallback option and it surprised them when the Packers grabbed Wyatt a couple picks before them The terms "trade down" and "target" should not be used in the same sentence. If you drop, especially 20 spots, trade down can only be associated with "hope". And as Marky mark says, hope aint a tactic.
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