The offensive line, no longer offensive

I watched Remmers play some over the weekend on some replay and he tends to hold some and can get beat on the outside.
I think we will be right around average with the line and that is far better than what we fielded last year.

@"Canthony" said: I watched Remmers play some over the weekend on some replay and he tends to hold some and can get beat on the outside. I think we will be right around average with the line and that is far better than what we fielded last year.

I think this is as realistic as it gets. Average will be a big improvement. This line isn't talented. They won't be great. Remmers isn't athletic. Reiff isn't a LT, he's a RT in the NFL. But the line was so bad and injured last year, not sure how they won't be improved this year, so there's that at least.

@"Norse" said: We brought Clancy Barone in to take over as the team’s tight ends coach, but he was the offensive line coach for the Bronco's. 

considering it was the broncos OL that had limited their success in recent years... I dont know if this is a good thing.  they were pretty banged up and limited during Mannings tenure there and rarely helped out the other young QBs they were charged with protecting.

@"StickyBun" said:

@"Canthony" said: I watched Remmers play some over the weekend on some replay and he tends to hold some and can get beat on the outside. I think we will be right around average with the line and that is far better than what we fielded last year.

I think this is as realistic as it gets. Average will be a big improvement. This line isn't talented. They won't be great. Remmers isn't athletic. Reiff isn't a LT, he's a RT in the NFL. But the line was so bad and injured last year, not sure how they won't be improved this year, so there's that at least.

@"Canthony" said:

@"StickyBun" said:

@"Canthony" said: I watched Remmers play some over the weekend on some replay and he tends to hold some and can get beat on the outside. I think we will be right around average with the line and that is far better than what we fielded last year.

I think this is as realistic as it gets. Average will be a big improvement. This line isn't talented. They won't be great. Remmers isn't athletic. Reiff isn't a LT, he's a RT in the NFL. But the line was so bad and injured last year, not sure how they won't be improved this year, so there's that at least.

We need to work on this line for sure. Get a legit LT and move Reiff to RT. I think Remmers, correct me I am wrong, contract is set up as more of a one year deal. I suppose I could go look

@"minny65" said:

@"Canthony" said:

@"StickyBun" said:

@"Canthony" said: I watched Remmers play some over the weekend on some replay and he tends to hold some and can get beat on the outside. I think we will be right around average with the line and that is far better than what we fielded last year.

I think this is as realistic as it gets. Average will be a big improvement. This line isn't talented. They won't be great. Remmers isn't athletic. Reiff isn't a LT, he's a RT in the NFL. But the line was so bad and injured last year, not sure how they won't be improved this year, so there's that at least.

We need to work on this line for sure. Get a legit LT and move Reiff to RT. I think Remmers, correct me I am wrong, contract is set up as more of a one year deal. I suppose I could go look

More like a two year deal after 2018 he would be 1.8 dead money and have paid him 11.5 for two years.

Reiff is 6.6 dead money after 2018 so 2 year 26 million.  

So about 6 mill per for a RT and 13 mill per for a LT.   

We shall see about this line...  I've heard some form of this for the last... oh, I don't know,,, 10 years maybe more.  Need to see it on the field, sustained.   

@"minny65" said: Agree about next year's draft.  We must not have been in love with most of this year's top OL .  

Here's the problem with that theory ("2017 was a bad year to pick OL so the Vikings didn't want to reach"): since 2011, the Vikings have apparently felt that EVERY year was a bad one to pick offensive linemen. I'm not going to pull the numbers again, but I and others here have done so before, and Spielman has used fewer draft picks on OL than on any other position. Other than Kalil, no high picks until Elflein (and 70th overall isn't very high either). I've heard all the excuses, including that he thought he had players like Sullivan and Fusco and Loadholt in place and so didn't need to draft anyone, but assuming every veteran lineman will stay healthy for multiple years is a silly approach. Good lines are built by consistently finding and adding talent every year, not from waiting for the perfect year to draft OL.

I'm truly hopeful Remmers and especially Rieff can improve our line, but they are desperate additions in hope of a quick fix for a long-neglected unit. Like many others I have heard the annual promise that our line will improve for so many years that I won't believe until they prove it.

@"Jor-El" said:

@"minny65" said: Agree about next year's draft.  We must not have been in love with most of this year's top OL .  

Here's the problem with that theory ("2017 was a bad year to pick OL so the Vikings didn't want to reach"): since 2011, the Vikings have apparently felt that EVERY year was a bad one to pick offensive linemen. I'm not going to pull the numbers again, but I and others here have done so before, and Spielman has used fewer draft picks on OL than on any other position. Other than Kalil, no high picks until Elflein (and 70th overall isn't very high either). I've heard all the excuses, including that he thought he had players like Sullivan and Fusco and Loadholt in place and so didn't need to draft anyone, but assuming every veteran lineman will stay healthy for multiple years is a silly approach. Good lines are built by consistently finding and adding talent every year, not from waiting for the perfect year to draft OL.

I'm truly hopeful Remmers and especially Rieff can improve our line, but they are desperate additions in hope of a quick fix for a long-neglected unit. Like many others I have heard the annual promise that our line will improve for so many years that I won't believe until they prove it.

Minny65, I know you might not have meant it as a "theory" - but there are posters who say things like, "it's a bad year for linemen" or "the Vikings can't just reach for a lineman if they didn't like any that year", EVERY time one of us wonders why Spielman drafts so few OL. I know that you advocated for some good OL prospects, and Elflein and Isidora are a pretty minimal investment for a team that hasn't drafted for that unit in years.

Personally, I think it's ridiculous when they talk about whether a year is good or bad for certain positions, especially when someone claims that "next year" will be a banner year for this or that position. Twelve months is a long time in college football and NFL scouting. Besides, show me evidence the Vikings pick from the "strong positions" in each draft? In 2013 we picked a WR in the first despite that being a HORRIBLE year for WRs - Patterson might have been a 3rd-rounder one year later. We picked Waynes in a weak year for CBs, too.

Some GMs don't care to draft at certain positions, and Spielman is that way with offensive linemen. For a long time before Spielman, the Vikings seemed to hate drafting DBs, so I'm glad he changed that stupidity. Maybe he will fix his blind spot some day.

@"Jor-El" said: Minny65, I know you might not have meant it as a "theory" - but there are posters who say things like, "it's a bad year for linemen" or "the Vikings can't just reach for a lineman if they didn't like any that year", EVERY time one of us wonders why Spielman drafts so few OL. I know that you advocated for some good OL prospects, and Elflein and Isidora are a pretty minimal investment for a team that hasn't drafted for that unit in years.

Personally, I think it's ridiculous when they talk about whether a year is good or bad for certain positions, especially when someone claims that "next year" will be a banner year for this or that position. Twelve months is a long time in college football and NFL scouting. Besides, show me evidence the Vikings pick from the "strong positions" in each draft? In 2013 we picked a WR in the first despite that being a HORRIBLE year for WRs - Patterson might have been a 3rd-rounder one year later. We picked Waynes in a weak year for CBs, too.

Some GMs don't care to draft at certain positions, and Spielman is that way with offensive linemen. For a long time before Spielman, the Vikings seemed to hate drafting DBs, so I'm glad he changed that stupidity. Maybe he will fix his blind spot some day.

Should be drafting oline or dine in the top 4 rounds every year IMO. 

@"Jor-El" said: Minny65, I know you might not have meant it as a "theory" - but there are posters who say things like, "it's a bad year for linemen" or "the Vikings can't just reach for a lineman if they didn't like any that year", EVERY time one of us wonders why Spielman drafts so few OL. I know that you advocated for some good OL prospects, and Elflein and Isidora are a pretty minimal investment for a team that hasn't drafted for that unit in years.

Yea, I am still very surprised by us not drafting any Tackle prospects.  Now both Dawkins and Moton, I do like Dawkins better, have the potential to start at G and then move to Tackle according to all the scouts.  I thought that Dawkins would be a plug in at RT and fallback to RG so a very good prospect at 2 positions of huge need.  The move up for Cook threw out our chances of drafting both these guys when two other teams moved up from there 3rd picks and they went back-to-back at the end of the second. Although in my drafting armchair mind I would have loved to move back up for Dawkins....not sure the cost.  If we came away with Dawkins I would have been thrilled.

The move up for Cook was a surprise to me and then the selection of Elflein was as well.  I was so focused on "Tackles" for this draft.  We both had numerous pre/post draft posts about the supply and demand of Tackles and how it is getting harder and harder (thus $$$$ going to average players) to find. Look at the money we paid Reiff, the Lions paid Wagner, the Panthers paid Kalil etc..

You know I am a Spelly defender but that does not mean I agree with everything he does and I do criticize.  The OL is a sore spot for him, no doubt.  I hold Spelly accountable since he has become the sole GM so this was his 5th off season and draft.  I think once he was allowed to bring in his first HC hire that he and Zimmer have clicked extremely well.  They have turned around an old and bad defense in short time.  I loved the move up for Teddy and thought he was our future franchise guy.  

Back to the OL:

Spelly seems to get beat out for our top free agent targets - this year we were all over Wagner, the year before it was Zeitler (?) then Osemele.  I think Boone is decent in the mold that I think Reiff is decent.  I am not that big on Wagner as supposedly Spelly was so I am not upset at missing out on him.  But I am just using him as an example of guys that we have missed out on - mostly for money but not always - Zeitler seemed to want to stay in Cinncy - but more money does talk.  That leads my ramble to Whitworth (LT - Cinncy) this offseason.  I would have loved to signed him.  Sure he is 35 but minimal injury history and top performance.  He went to the Rams for a deal that I think we could have beat.  But it was so hush-hush on him, I didn't read about any team attached to him and the thought was that he was staying in Cinncy.  

Basically, when you combine the free agent just misses, with our lack of drafting in the Top 3 rounds over the years it is a more then fair criticism of Spelly.  But overall, I think Spelly has done a very good job in turning this roster around.  

Here is what I was hoping and thought we would see after this free agency and draft:

Whitworth at LT
Reiff at RT (with the versatility to play LT of course)
Dawkins at RG (with the versatility to play RT)

That, in my mind is a progression plan, meaning if Whitworth does only play the one season (15mill guaranteed) then we would have Reiff available for a slide over and Dawkins available for a slide over (after a rookie season) to RT.  

That all said, I thought the combo of Easton/Berger would hold down the Center position just fine - so obviously Spelly thought otherwise with the Elflein pick.  

I don't think I have been more off on a Spelly draft then I have been on this one so maybe that is why I am having a hard time.