About Waynes...

@"dadevike" said:

@"BarrNone55" said: And yet, we had the third overall D last year, third against the pass...go figure...

http://www.nfl.com/stats/team?seasonId=2016&seasonType=&Submit=Go

Yeah but that does not mean that EVERY defensive player is playing great. Waynes is not terrible. Nobody is saying that. Those who refute that position are refuting a point not made. But he is the weakest link on the defense. I think only Barr was a higher pick than Waynes. (Maybe Newman?) I think his celing is pretty low. I suspect he won't ever be much better than he is now. 

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"dadevike" said:

@"BarrNone55" said: And yet, we had the third overall D last year, third against the pass...go figure...

http://www.nfl.com/stats/team?seasonId=2016&seasonType=&Submit=Go

Yeah but that does not mean that EVERY defensive player is playing great. Waynes is not terrible. Nobody is saying that. Those who refute that position are refuting a point not made. But he is the weakest link on the defense. I think only Barr was a higher pick than Waynes. (Maybe Newman?) I think his celing is pretty low. I suspect he won't ever be much better than he is now. 

Waynes is in a tough position. Opposite a shut down corner, he gets a lot of attention from OCs. He's handling it remarkably well.

And he's improved every year. So I disagree completely that he's done improving. Rhodes is in his 5th season and is still improving. Clearly, he's better this year than he was last, his 4th season, which most would say was his breakout season. So it would be pretty silly to think that Waynes, in only his 3rd season, has hit his peak in this defense.

@"NodakViking" said: Waynes is getting what he needed most, more playing time.  If he was a bad as some on hear think he wouldn't be starting and getting any praise from Zimmer.  How does he intercept any passes when he "never" gets his head around?  Rhodes in year three wasn't any better, remember him getting torched by Erin/abused by Jordy?  He gets better with each game he starts.

He does have a serious problem getting his head around. And it is costing him. He could have defensed more balls if he would get his head around when the receiver shows his hands. HOWEVER, he isn't getting beat very often. There was one play yesterday where the receiver had a step on him and luckily it fell incomplete, but other than that he seemed to be in the pocket of the receiver pretty much all day I thought. I know we all watched him pretty much exclusively by default because... well the QB rarely threw at Rhodes man. 

its amazing that we are 5-2 with the colossal heap of ineptitude we have in our secondary.  half our starting Safeties and Corner backs are complete shit.  its a sad testament to just how bad the talent pool is at for offensive coordinators that opposing teams havent been able to take advantage of the complete lack of talent we are running out there every Sunday at the positions opposite Rhodes and Smith.  

Nice hyperbole there, Jimmy.

Look, I've been as big of a supporter of Waynes as anyone on here. Predicted the team would draft him (though Wetlander stole the idea from me and posted it first) and argued that it was the right move.

But man does he still have a confidence issue. My dad and I counted at least 6 times yesterday where on 3rd and long he was giving a cushion that was past the first down marker.

You could argue he's doing that because he has the speed to close the gap if his man runs to the sricks and turns for the catch.  Except that isn't what happens. He's either late to break up the pass or still maintaining the cushion.

It's like he's determined not to get beat deep no matter what. Could be that's what he's being coached to do. If so, that's a shame. Elite CBs still get beat deep on occasion. They shrug it off just like Elite Closers in baseball.

Yeah, not turning his head bugs me but I look around the League and see a lot of young CBs with that problem. It's the big cushions that really concern me. Especially on 3rd downs.

But at the end of the day it was still a good pick. Why? 50% of First Rounders bust. Trae is certainly not a bust. He's a legit #2 Corner on a very good Defense.

No, he's not going to be Rhodes Jr. like I was projecting. But an extremely consistent tackler in the Run Game and against screens that gets his fair share of INTs ia good enough and there's always the chance that he develops more confidence and eliminates the big cushions.

And let's not even bring up the alternative. Marcus Peters is an undisciplined player that gambles constantly. He would have become a permanent resident in the Mike Zimmer doghouse. The selfish Personal Fouls aren't winning him any fans here in KC either.

Would you hope for more than League Average taking someone that high in the Draft? Of course. But considering what a crapshoot the Draft is and how Minnesota picked a virtual can't miss LT much higher that didn't pan out I'm fine with where Waynes is at.

@"FSUVike" said: Nice hyperbole there, Jimmy.

Look, I've been as big of a supporter of Waynes as anyone on here. Predicted the team would draft him (though Wetlander stole the idea from me and posted it first) and argued that it was the right move.

But man does he still have a confidence issue. My dad and I counted at least 6 times yesterday where on 3rd and long he was giving a cushion that was past the first down marker.

You could argue he's doing that because he has the speed to close the gap if his man runs to the sricks and turns for the catch.  Except that isn't what happens. He's either late to break up the pass or still maintaining the cushion.

It's like he's determined not to get beat deep no matter what. Could be that's what he's being coached to do. If so, that's a shame. Elite CBs still get beat deep on occasion. They shrug it off just like Elite Closers in baseball.

Yeah, not turning his head bugs me but I look around the League and see a lot of young CBs with that problem. It's the big cushions that really concern me. Especially on 3rd downs.

But at the end of the day it was still a good pick. Why? 50% of First Rounders bust. Trae is certainly not a bust. He's a legit #2 Corner on a very good Defense.

No, he's not going to be Rhodes Jr. like I was projecting. But an extremely consistent tackler in the Run Game and against screens that gets his fair share of INTs ia good enough and there's always the chance that he develops more confidence and eliminates the big cushions.

And let's not even bring up the alternative. Marcus Peters is an undisciplined player that gambles constantly. He would have become a permanent resident in the Mike Zimmer doghouse. The selfish Personal Fouls aren't winning him any fans here in KC either.

Would you hope for more than League Average taking someone that high in the Draft? Of course. But considering what a crapshoot the Draft is and how Minnesota picked a virtual can't miss LT much higher that didn't pan out I'm fine with where Waynes is at.

I figured that if he was such a fuck up as some make him out to be and not showing the growth that some say,  or not doing things the way Zim wants them done... he wouldnt be out there.  he is in a tough position,  with Rhodes on the other side he knows they are coming his way and often.  I have been very happy with the growth I have seen from him,  the head getting around will come with time and confidence.

@"FSUVike" said: Nice hyperbole there, Jimmy.

Look, I've been as big of a supporter of Waynes as anyone on here. Predicted the team would draft him (though Wetlander stole the idea from me and posted it first) and argued that it was the right move.

But man does he still have a confidence issue. My dad and I counted at least 6 times yesterday where on 3rd and long he was giving a cushion that was past the first down marker.

You could argue he's doing that because he has the speed to close the gap if his man runs to the sricks and turns for the catch.  Except that isn't what happens. He's either late to break up the pass or still maintaining the cushion.

It's like he's determined not to get beat deep no matter what. Could be that's what he's being coached to do. If so, that's a shame. Elite CBs still get beat deep on occasion. They shrug it off just like Elite Closers in baseball.

If he had serious confidence issues and wasn't playing his position, he wouldn't be starting.  Not saying he doesn't have improvements to make, but seriously, if he wasn't playing the defense called, he wouldn't be out there. 

Look at our defense.  Brees, Rothlisberger, Winston, Flacco, Stafford, Rodgers (brief but unproductive).  How have they all fared?  Not very well.  Our defense is playing lights out.  Alexander and Waynes are the "weak links" if we have any.  But they aren't getting exploited for much, so I tend to think our defense is playing as Zimmer asks them to do.  This isn't the Tampa 2 with 10 yard cushions.

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"FSUVike" said: Nice hyperbole there, Jimmy.

Look, I've been as big of a supporter of Waynes as anyone on here. Predicted the team would draft him (though Wetlander stole the idea from me and posted it first) and argued that it was the right move.

But man does he still have a confidence issue. My dad and I counted at least 6 times yesterday where on 3rd and long he was giving a cushion that was past the first down marker.

You could argue he's doing that because he has the speed to close the gap if his man runs to the sricks and turns for the catch.  Except that isn't what happens. He's either late to break up the pass or still maintaining the cushion.

It's like he's determined not to get beat deep no matter what. Could be that's what he's being coached to do. If so, that's a shame. Elite CBs still get beat deep on occasion. They shrug it off just like Elite Closers in baseball.

Yeah, not turning his head bugs me but I look around the League and see a lot of young CBs with that problem. It's the big cushions that really concern me. Especially on 3rd downs.

But at the end of the day it was still a good pick. Why? 50% of First Rounders bust. Trae is certainly not a bust. He's a legit #2 Corner on a very good Defense.

No, he's not going to be Rhodes Jr. like I was projecting. But an extremely consistent tackler in the Run Game and against screens that gets his fair share of INTs ia good enough and there's always the chance that he develops more confidence and eliminates the big cushions.

And let's not even bring up the alternative. Marcus Peters is an undisciplined player that gambles constantly. He would have become a permanent resident in the Mike Zimmer doghouse. The selfish Personal Fouls aren't winning him any fans here in KC either.

Would you hope for more than League Average taking someone that high in the Draft? Of course. But considering what a crapshoot the Draft is and how Minnesota picked a virtual can't miss LT much higher that didn't pan out I'm fine with where Waynes is at.

I figured that if he was such a fuck up as some make him out to be and not showing the growth that some say,  or not doing things the way Zim wants them done... he wouldnt be out there.  he is in a tough position,  with Rhodes on the other side he knows they are coming his way and often.  I have been very happy with the growth I have seen from him,  the head getting around will come with time and confidence.

@"minny65" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"FSUVike" said: Nice hyperbole there, Jimmy.

Look, I've been as big of a supporter of Waynes as anyone on here. Predicted the team would draft him (though Wetlander stole the idea from me and posted it first) and argued that it was the right move.

But man does he still have a confidence issue. My dad and I counted at least 6 times yesterday where on 3rd and long he was giving a cushion that was past the first down marker.

You could argue he's doing that because he has the speed to close the gap if his man runs to the sricks and turns for the catch.  Except that isn't what happens. He's either late to break up the pass or still maintaining the cushion.

It's like he's determined not to get beat deep no matter what. Could be that's what he's being coached to do. If so, that's a shame. Elite CBs still get beat deep on occasion. They shrug it off just like Elite Closers in baseball.

Yeah, not turning his head bugs me but I look around the League and see a lot of young CBs with that problem. It's the big cushions that really concern me. Especially on 3rd downs.

But at the end of the day it was still a good pick. Why? 50% of First Rounders bust. Trae is certainly not a bust. He's a legit #2 Corner on a very good Defense.

No, he's not going to be Rhodes Jr. like I was projecting. But an extremely consistent tackler in the Run Game and against screens that gets his fair share of INTs ia good enough and there's always the chance that he develops more confidence and eliminates the big cushions.

And let's not even bring up the alternative. Marcus Peters is an undisciplined player that gambles constantly. He would have become a permanent resident in the Mike Zimmer doghouse. The selfish Personal Fouls aren't winning him any fans here in KC either.

Would you hope for more than League Average taking someone that high in the Draft? Of course. But considering what a crapshoot the Draft is and how Minnesota picked a virtual can't miss LT much higher that didn't pan out I'm fine with where Waynes is at.

I figured that if he was such a fuck up as some make him out to be and not showing the growth that some say,  or not doing things the way Zim wants them done... he wouldnt be out there.  he is in a tough position,  with Rhodes on the other side he knows they are coming his way and often.  I have been very happy with the growth I have seen from him,  the head getting around will come with time and confidence.

Don't you think if the coaches/zimmer wanted Waynes up closer to his guy they would demand that.  My conclusion is that they are fine with him playing off.  But I am interested in your opinions as very knowledgeable posters.  Bascially, are they giving Waynes free reign on how far to play off???

I did seem to notice yesterday that he kind of threw up his hands after plays a lot instead of finishing the plays or ensuring they were done.

I've been pretty damned critical of Waynes, but have to say it's pretty cool to see a deep pass and when the camera pans to the WR, Waynes is running with him stride for stride. Meanwhile, the pass sails far over the WR's head in what amounted to nothing more than a prayer.

...and I'll be damned of that guy isn't fun to watch in run support.

@"minny65" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"FSUVike" said: Nice hyperbole there, Jimmy.

Look, I've been as big of a supporter of Waynes as anyone on here. Predicted the team would draft him (though Wetlander stole the idea from me and posted it first) and argued that it was the right move.

But man does he still have a confidence issue. My dad and I counted at least 6 times yesterday where on 3rd and long he was giving a cushion that was past the first down marker.

You could argue he's doing that because he has the speed to close the gap if his man runs to the sricks and turns for the catch.  Except that isn't what happens. He's either late to break up the pass or still maintaining the cushion.

It's like he's determined not to get beat deep no matter what. Could be that's what he's being coached to do. If so, that's a shame. Elite CBs still get beat deep on occasion. They shrug it off just like Elite Closers in baseball.

Yeah, not turning his head bugs me but I look around the League and see a lot of young CBs with that problem. It's the big cushions that really concern me. Especially on 3rd downs.

But at the end of the day it was still a good pick. Why? 50% of First Rounders bust. Trae is certainly not a bust. He's a legit #2 Corner on a very good Defense.

No, he's not going to be Rhodes Jr. like I was projecting. But an extremely consistent tackler in the Run Game and against screens that gets his fair share of INTs ia good enough and there's always the chance that he develops more confidence and eliminates the big cushions.

And let's not even bring up the alternative. Marcus Peters is an undisciplined player that gambles constantly. He would have become a permanent resident in the Mike Zimmer doghouse. The selfish Personal Fouls aren't winning him any fans here in KC either.

Would you hope for more than League Average taking someone that high in the Draft? Of course. But considering what a crapshoot the Draft is and how Minnesota picked a virtual can't miss LT much higher that didn't pan out I'm fine with where Waynes is at.

I figured that if he was such a fuck up as some make him out to be and not showing the growth that some say,  or not doing things the way Zim wants them done... he wouldnt be out there.  he is in a tough position,  with Rhodes on the other side he knows they are coming his way and often.  I have been very happy with the growth I have seen from him,  the head getting around will come with time and confidence.

Don't you think if the coaches/zimmer wanted Waynes up closer to his guy they would demand that.  My conclusion is that they are fine with him playing off.  But I am interested in your opinions as very knowledgeable posters.  Bascially, are they giving Waynes free reign on how far to play off???

I'm happy right now. But also justifiably concerned with how Matt Ryan will look to throw to Sanu against Trae every chance he gets.

Cousins, Stafford and Goff will, too. Although Goff will probably go at Alexander a bunch covering that freak Cooper Kupp.

Really going to be interst in to see how Waynes reacts on the road. And I'm very intrigued by this pattern matching concept that Zimmer has rolled out.

Does anyone have a link where I could learn more about it?

@"Mike Olson" said:

@"NodakViking" said: Waynes is getting what he needed most, more playing time.  If he was a bad as some on hear think he wouldn't be starting and getting any praise from Zimmer.  How does he intercept any passes when he "never" gets his head around?  Rhodes in year three wasn't any better, remember him getting torched by Erin/abused by Jordy?  He gets better with each game he starts.

He does have a serious problem getting his head around. And it is costing him. He could have defensed more balls if he would get his head around when the receiver shows his hands. HOWEVER, he isn't getting beat very often. There was one play yesterday where the receiver had a step on him and luckily it fell incomplete, but other than that he seemed to be in the pocket of the receiver pretty much all day I thought. I know we all watched him pretty much exclusively by default because... well the QB rarely threw at Rhodes man. 

@"NodakViking" said:

@"Mike Olson" said:

@"NodakViking" said: Waynes is getting what he needed most, more playing time.  If he was a bad as some on hear think he wouldn't be starting and getting any praise from Zimmer.  How does he intercept any passes when he "never" gets his head around?  Rhodes in year three wasn't any better, remember him getting torched by Erin/abused by Jordy?  He gets better with each game he starts.

He does have a serious problem getting his head around. And it is costing him. He could have defensed more balls if he would get his head around when the receiver shows his hands. HOWEVER, he isn't getting beat very often. There was one play yesterday where the receiver had a step on him and luckily it fell incomplete, but other than that he seemed to be in the pocket of the receiver pretty much all day I thought. I know we all watched him pretty much exclusively by default because... well the QB rarely threw at Rhodes man. 

I agree but sometimes if you feel out of position/beat it's better the play the man rather than turn your head too late and let him not only make the catch but possible evade the tackle.

I think he is still trending up and with my long memory of crap DB's since Ike Holt and Carl Lee it doesn't bother me much-he can't be that bad with the defense play at/near an elite level.

Pretty good article on 1500espn - snippet:

Football Outsiders’ tracking data reveals that Waynes is the third most targeted cornerback in the NFL with 49 throws in his direction.
The interesting thing about those throws is that they’ve largely been deep balls. That may be situational – Drew Brees, for example, chucked a successful bomb in Waynes’ direction while trailing by double digits in the fourth quarter of Week 1. Jameis Winston, likewise, launched one up for a Waynes INT while trying to come back. His 14.4 Air Yard Depth per Target ranks ninth in the NFL.
How has he done as the target of opposing passing games? In the first two weeks, he certainly struggled, giving up 9-for-10 passing on throws his way to Brees, then he gave up a bomb and a long pass interference against the Steelers.
Since Week 3, opposing teams have had little success working the ball in Waynes’ direction. They’ve registered a 68.3 passer rating. He’s also done a strong job tackling, giving up only 41 yards after catch.
It probably isn’t a coincidence that the quarterbacks the Vikings have faced since Week 3 have been Winston, Mitch Trubisky, Brett Hundley and Joe Flacco – a far cry from Brees and Roethlisberger.
Last season, Waynes had his two poorest games against Aaron Rodgers.
Overall he’s given up a 91.3 rating and ranks 73rd of 112 corners who have played enough snaps to qualify for Pro Football Focus ratings. We will have a better sense of where Waynes’ transition to a full-timer stands after the bye week. This week, the Vikings face the NFL’s worst quarterback DeShone Kizer, who has just three touchdowns and 11 interceptions. But after the bye, they match up with Kirk Cousins, Jared Goff, Matt Stafford, Matt Ryan and Cam Newton in succession.