We're on to Detroit...

JimmyinSD wrote:

I wont give him credit or bash him for free agency,  we really dont know what he is being told by the coaches, and honestly its really just an auction,  however the draft day decisions have got to be weighed heavily and IMO he has grossly underperformed in this area and him still sticking with the same group to advise him... just begs to be questioned...or dismissed.

I think you can because we spent something like 280+ million dollars in free agency (second most in the league) on a lot of older players past their prime and coming off injuries to fill roster holes created by his plethora of draft misses. Those players have (shockingly) been injured or haven't produced and look like bad contracts at this point. Look at our roster. How many starting players do we have that are players Kwesi has drafted since he's been here? I count 3- Addison, Jackson and McCarthy. For someone four drafts into his tenure, that's awful. Most of the building block players on the roster (Jefferson, Darrisaw, O'Neill) are guys drafted by Spielman. In contrast, look at the teams in our division and how many of their starters are guys they have drafted over the last four years. The contrast is staggering. Teams are built through the draft and not through free agency and overspending because you have to overspend to fill holes on the roster is never a good idea. I never understood the "competitive rebuild" model because this was always going to ultimately be the result. 

Don't get me wrong, we can flip the narrative Sunday winning a game we have no business winning in Detroit and maybe getting some momentum, but I hope the Wilfs take an honest look at this at the end of the year and if front office changes are justified, I hope they have the balls to do it. Right now those changes are absolutely justified

supafreak84 wrote:

I think you can because we spent something like 280+ million dollars in free agency (second most in the league) on a lot of older players past their prime and coming off injuries to fill roster holes created by his plethora of draft misses. Those players have (shockingly) been injured or haven't produced and look like bad contracts at this point. Look at our roster. How many starting players do we have that are players Kwesi has  drafted since he's been here? I count 3- Addison, Jackson and McCarthy. For someone four drafts into his tenure, that's awful. Most of the building block players on the roster (Jefferson, Darrisaw, O'Neill) are guys drafted by Spielman. In contrast, look at the teams in our division and how many of their starters are guys they have drafted over the last four years. The contrast is staggering. Teams are built through the draft and not through free agency and overspending because you have to overspend to fill holes on the roster is never a good idea. I never understood the "competitive rebuild" because this was always going to ultimately be the result. 

Don't get me wrong, we can flip the narrative Sunday winning a game we have no business winning in Detroit and maybe getting some momentum, but I hope the Wilfs take an honest look at this at the end of the year and if front office changes are justified, I hope they have the balls to do it. Right now those changes are absolutely justified

my point was in FA,  i suspect its more about the coaches doing the shopping list and the GM just goes to the store,  and most certainly our FA expenditures are related to draft failures,  but as far as the hits and misses in FA... that IMO isnt as much about the GM.  I just am really beginning to question how much KAM understands about the game vs it just being a business or him trying to be the smartest guy in the room.   its only fun to be playing chess when the game is chess... sometimes the game is just fucking checkers and you better be playing checkers then.

and a win in detroit will feel good for a few days,  but it doesnt fix the issues that we have,  we are still undersized in the middle of our D,  we are still lacking depth at many positions,  and we are still lacking talent on affordable contracts.  I dont think KAM goes anywhere for at least another season,  maybe after 26 if its still looking to be a failure would they then move on.

JimmyinSD wrote:

my point was in FA,  i suspect its more about the coaches doing the shopping list and the GM just goes to the store,  and most certainly our FA expenditures are related to draft failures,  but as far as the hits and misses in FA... that IMO isnt as much about the GM.  I just am really beginning to question how much KAM understands about the game vs it just being a business or him trying to be the smartest guy in the room.   its only fun to be playing chess when the game is chess... sometimes the game is just fucking checkers and you better be playing checkers then.

and a win in detroit will feel good for a few days,  but it doesnt fix the issues that we have,  we are still undersized in the middle of our D,  we are still lacking depth at many positions,  and we are still lacking talent on affordable contracts.  I dont think KAM goes anywhere for at least another season,  maybe after 26 if its still looking to be a failure would they then move on.

Well ultimately he is the architect and the decision maker on the construction of the roster. I'm sure most GM's do take input from coaches to an extent when it comes to free agency, but it's still their call on the player and the contract given in negotiation. He gambled this year on older guys coming off significant injuries because he had to and to this point its bit him in the ass, but It was the only way for him to try addressing the holes on the roster he created with his draft ineptitude. Why retain a guy who continues to make bad decisions? Are we hoping all of a sudden he's going to start nailing draft picks when that's never been his background or M.O.? That's a steep ask and I hope the Wilfs are honest about the results. They shitcanned Spielman after going 8-9 in 2021 and losing a record number of one score games. What I saw against the Chargers was ten-fold worse than any game I watched the Vikings play that year.

Well since this has veered off of the Detroit game into let's bash the g.m., I guess I'll pile on with something I found just now:

Kwesi has drafted 29 players as GM of the Vikings.
Those players have combined to start 156 out of a possible 1290 games for the Vikings (12.1%).

The rest of the NFC North since 2022
Lions 34.1%
Packers 30.1%
Bears 28.3%

Personally I think of drafting as an organizational function. The coaches, scouts, front office & g.m. all work together for better or worse. Not absolving KAM for the failures, but to think we just fire him and leave everyone else in place and it gets better is imo delusional thinking.

comet52 wrote:
Well since this has veered off of the Detroit game into let's bash the g.m., I guess I'll pile on with something I found just now:

Kwesi has drafted 29 players as GM of the Vikings.
Those players have combined to start 156 out of a possible 1290 games for the Vikings (12.1%).

The rest of the NFC North since 2022
Lions  34.1%
Packers  30.1%
Bears  28.3%

Personally I think of drafting as an organizational function.  The coaches, scouts, front office & g.m. all work together for better or worse.  Not absolving KAM for the failures, but to think we just fire him and leave everyone else in place and it gets better is imo delusional thinking.

So not even half bad…?  :cool: :angel:

comet52 wrote:
Well since this has veered off of the Detroit game into let's bash the g.m., I guess I'll pile on with something I found just now:

Kwesi has drafted 29 players as GM of the Vikings.
Those players have combined to start 156 out of a possible 1290 games for the Vikings (12.1%).

The rest of the NFC North since 2022
Lions  34.1%
Packers  30.1%
Bears  28.3%

Personally I think of drafting as an organizational function.  The coaches, scouts, front office & g.m. all work together for better or worse.  Not absolving KAM for the failures, but to think we just fire him and leave everyone else in place and it gets better is imo delusional thinking.

You just can't bring in an analytics guy with zero scouting experience, zero playing experience, and minimal league experience to call the shots and oversee roster construction and the draft. It's the equivalent of hiring someone to run the Pentagon because he managed an Ace Hardware and has a degree in Marine Biology. You can't bring in a guy who was a complete and utter failure himself as a GM in Ryan Grigson to be the assistant GM and the experienced voice of reason in the draft room. Its a recipe for disaster and that's how it's played out. 

If the season continues on its current trajectory and McCarthy doesn't improve from what we've seen...how do you not make front office changes when the results have been what they've been? I would not be ready to throw the coaching staff out, but front office changes are a must.

comet52 wrote:
Well since this has veered off of the Detroit game into let's bash the g.m., I guess I'll pile on with something I found just now:

Kwesi has drafted 29 players as GM of the Vikings.
Those players have combined to start 156 out of a possible 1290 games for the Vikings (12.1%).

The rest of the NFC North since 2022
Lions  34.1%
Packers  30.1%
Bears  28.3%

Personally I think of drafting as an organizational function.  The coaches, scouts, front office & g.m. all work together for better or worse.  Not absolving KAM for the failures, but to think we just fire him and leave everyone else in place and it gets better is imo delusional thinking.

Someone in reddit responded to this (not going to look it up again) tweet, and brought in an additional frame of reference, where each of those teams had like twice as many top 100 draft picks.  Kwesi used a bunch of high draft picks to get Hockenson, JJM and Turner.  Obviously 2022 was a bad draft.  But the above metrics doesn't really reflect what we did with our picks, like it doesn't include starts by Hockenson, and it doesn't include the draft capital we gave up to be in position to trade up for a QB (who was injured a lot) or the additional trade to get Turner, both of whom I would consider still works in progress rather than purely judged bad.  Like if JJM ends up being a top 5 QB, how you feel about the quality of the starts is vastly different than if he's a bottom 5 QB.  Just saying that the above metrics grades Mahomes as the same as Fields, in that a start is a start.

Regardless, I think people need to chill out on the pitchforks until the season is over.  We need to see more of JJM before we start counting his draft pick as a bust on KAM's scorecard.

medaille wrote:
Regardless, I think people need to chill out on the pitchforks until the season is over.  We need to see more of JJM before we start counting his draft pick as a bust on KOC's scorecard.

I agree we need to let things play out and we are all rooting for this team, but this is a flawed roster on multiple levels and it's been ugly thusfar. 

On to Detroit...

We have to see how JJM grows and develops through the season. The OL is still a concern. We don't know if Kelly will be able to come back yet or not. Hopefully Darrisaw and O'Neill continue to heal up. Defense has holes and BFlo needs to step up with the coaching. KOC should give up playcalling at this point but he won't. There was a plan and it didn't work out how it was supposed to so now they move on and hopefully get the qb situation sorted out. KOC needs to bring balance with run and pass as well as quick plays in order to be succesful against the Lions.

On paper the Vikings should lose, but this is the NFL and the Vikings, so of course they'll win and fans will be more confused.

Mattyman wrote:
On paper the Vikings should lose, but this is the NFL and the Vikings, so of course they'll win and fans will be more confused.

It would be the first time since 1/21.

When a D is predicated on turnovers.....and you don't get said turnovers.....you get what you get. Need to turn the dry spell around:

Vikings INTs on Defense:

So Far This Season — 3
Last Season — 24

Darrisaw, McCarthy, & VanGinkel all listed as full participants today…!  :)

https://www.vikings.com/news/lions-injury-report-week-9-2025

My prediction for the game:

Lions are going to not have their best game, they're going to overlook us a bit, we're going to clean things up a bit, and its going to be a close game.

27-24. Not sure which team is which, but I'd still lean Lions over Vikes as much as it pains me, but we'll be relatively happy with the performance.

medaille wrote:
My prediction for the game:

Lions are going to not have their best game, they're going to overlook us a bit, we're going to clean things up a bit, and its going to be a close game.

27-24.  Not sure which team is which, but I'd still lean Lions over Vikes as much as it pains me, but we'll be relatively happy with the performance.

I think we probably lose a tight one as well. Realistically, our current roster against theres, on the road, a close loss in which McCarthy plays well would be a fine result for me. I do think we have a chance to win.

Kentis wrote:
Darrisaw, McCarthy, & VanGinkel all listed as full participants today…!  :)

https://www.vikings.com/news/lions-injury-report-week-9-2025

Excited about Van Ginkel being back.  Darrisaw resting today.  Looks like no Okudah, Oliver or Ham.  Greenard upgraded to FP.

medaille wrote:
My prediction for the game:

Lions are going to not have their best game, they're going to overlook us a bit, we're going to clean things up a bit, and its going to be a close game.

27-24.  Not sure which team is which, but I'd still lean Lions over Vikes as much as it pains me, but we'll be relatively happy with the performance.

This is how I see it as well, although it's certainly possible it could landslide. How do we stop or minimize their running game? St Brown routinely eats our lunch, so how do we stop him? If there was ever a game for KOC to pull his head out of his ass and commit to running the football and keeping their offense off the field...here it is. If he is dropping McCarthy back to pass 40 times, he's an idiot.

supafreak84 wrote:

This is how I see it as well, although it's certainly possible it could landslide. How do we stop or minimize their running game? St Brown routinely eats our lunch, so how do we stop him? If there was ever a game for KOC to pull his head out of his ass and commit to running the football and keeping their offense off the field...here it is. If he is dropping McCarthy back to pass 40 times, he's an idiot.

If there was ever a game for the D and OL to step-up (and the playcalling) this is it...

Run the ball, stop the run, make Goff uncomfortable, take advantage of JJM by moving him around, slants, rollouts etc. 

As I typed that, I realized thats a lot of pieces to fall into place.

purplefaithful wrote:

If there was ever a game for the D and OL to step-up (and the playcalling) this is it...

Run the ball, stop the run, make Goff uncomfortable, take advantage of JJM by moving him around, slants, rollouts etc. 

As I typed that, I realized thats a lot of pieces to fall into place.

Just our expectations at the beginning of the year.

Hoping for the best with JJM, our two starting OT's, and AVG returning to the field.  It will be tough to beat the Lions, they're playing with lots of confidence.  Goff throwing to Amon-Ra St Brown, Sam LaPorta, and Jameson Williams are tough bunch to defend.  Gibbs snd Montgomery are fast, shifty RB combo, always rack up yard against the Vikes.  Aiden Hutchinson will definitely test our pass protection and give JJM something to look out for on passing downs.  I'm looking for a good, close game and hopefully a win.  My prediction is 21-14 Lions.