Misc. Thoughts

What I found interesting was the inside info the broadcasting crew said about talking with KOC about Dobbs. KOC said he felt he 'owed it to Dobbs to not treat him like all the other teams and see if they could make inroads with the bye week' (paraphrasing). lol, how'd that work out? I don't know if it was his hubris to think he could fix Dobbs or that he didn't have the guts to yank him and start Mullens against the Raiders. 

@"StickyBun" said: What I found interesting was the inside info the broadcasting crew said about talking with KOC about Dobbs. KOC said he felt he 'owed it to Dobbs to not treat him like all the other teams and see if they could make inroads with the bye week' (paraphrasing). lol, how'd that work out? I don't know if it was his hubris to think he could fix Dobbs or that he didn't have the guts to yank him and start Mullens against the Raiders. 

That is very on brand for KOC.  Part of me respects that as I think it builds loyalty among the players but as I said above, I wish KOC had more of a killer instinct.  I do think we are seeing much player development under KOC but I worry deeply about Kwesi's analytical approach (I believe in analytics, I just think Kwesi does it poorly) and KOC being too nice to people outside the buildings (the other team and refs).

@"VikingOracle" said: Simply put, I have deep reservations about the direction of the team and the "competitive rebuild."  (I am also not loving Youtube but that is another can of worms.). Here are some thoughts regarding the past few weeks:

• KOC:  I think KOC has the maings of a good coach but I worry he is too nice.  I think it is fine to be nice to your players but I worry that he doesn't know how/when to put his foot on the throat of the opposing team.  He also doesn't seem to be intimidating to the refs and I think you need that.  You couple his nice guy personality with his success last year in one score games is a horrible combo -- he is content to be in one score games because he has been so successful in them in the past.  I would love to see him go for the jugular.  Additionally, I believe teams take on the personality of their head coach and, in football, nice teams finish last.
• Kwesis:  Every game where Cine is a healthy scratch pisses me off.  First, I believe there is 12 to 18 true impact players in every draft -- players who require the other team to specifically scheme for him.  Most of those players are selected at the top half of the first round while a few will slip to the later in the draft.  To trade out of the top half is a huge risk (and with a divisional rival).  But on top of that, Kwesi chose a safety -- in the one study I found, safety has the worse "hit" rate of any position in the first round (15% compared to 50% at guard -- https://www.the33rdteam.com/assessing-first-round-hit-rate-at-every-nfl-position/).  On top of that, wasn't really a position of need -- there was Harry and Bynum (who has clearly become one of the Vikes best defenders) and Metellus.  Frankly, I am not certain I want Kwesi choosing the Vikings QB of the future.
• Me:  Actually, this year has been eye opening in respect to my expectations regarding players.  I don't think I am alone in thinking Asamoah would make a big jump this year.  Who also thought Tonga would be an integral part of the defensive line?
• Flores:  He is the gift that keeps on giving.  He puts the players in the best position to be their best selves.  He has made Wonnum some money; Bullard also.  Frankly, the best thing I like about Flores is the amount he plays the back-ups -- he has really built depth -- it is a refreshing approach after years of not giving back-ups a few plays every game.  Troy Dye even had a sack today.   He has even silenced critics of the DBs (myself included).
• Dobbs:  Look, this was inevitable.  As teams got more film of Dobbs in the Viking offense, the better they could prepare.  Frankly, he could have a few more interceptions as teams are jumping routes on him left and right.  Frankly, I am amazed that the Cardinals trades Dobbs instead of Murray -- I would have traded Murray, and tanked the season.

We need to move past the Kwesi and Cine debacle.  Everybody knows it was a bad decision but every team makes boneheaded moves in free agency and the draft.  Remember when they passed on Warren Sapp and took Derick Alexander?  So these types of moves are not unique to the current Viking management.

With all of the injuries I think the coaching staff has done well to keep the team in the playoff hunt all the while getting rid of some high dollar contracts of aging players in the past off season.

One thing that is concerning and nobody talks about is Greg Joseph.  Anybody else have that feeling he would miss that field goal to send it to possible overtime.  He had already missed previously and the confidence level in sending him out there has to be pretty low.

I think Kwesi has to be given a lot of credit for bringing in backups for the offensive line.  With the injuries they have had lately putting in somewhat competent backups is vital.  So way to go Kwesi. 

@"Greylock" said:

@"VikingOracle" said: Simply put, I have deep reservations about the direction of the team and the "competitive rebuild."  (I am also not loving Youtube but that is another can of worms.). Here are some thoughts regarding the past few weeks:

• KOC:  I think KOC has the maings of a good coach but I worry he is too nice.  I think it is fine to be nice to your players but I worry that he doesn't know how/when to put his foot on the throat of the opposing team.  He also doesn't seem to be intimidating to the refs and I think you need that.  You couple his nice guy personality with his success last year in one score games is a horrible combo -- he is content to be in one score games because he has been so successful in them in the past.  I would love to see him go for the jugular.  Additionally, I believe teams take on the personality of their head coach and, in football, nice teams finish last.
• Kwesis:  Every game where Cine is a healthy scratch pisses me off.  First, I believe there is 12 to 18 true impact players in every draft -- players who require the other team to specifically scheme for him.  Most of those players are selected at the top half of the first round while a few will slip to the later in the draft.  To trade out of the top half is a huge risk (and with a divisional rival).  But on top of that, Kwesi chose a safety -- in the one study I found, safety has the worse "hit" rate of any position in the first round (15% compared to 50% at guard -- https://www.the33rdteam.com/assessing-first-round-hit-rate-at-every-nfl-position/).  On top of that, wasn't really a position of need -- there was Harry and Bynum (who has clearly become one of the Vikes best defenders) and Metellus.  Frankly, I am not certain I want Kwesi choosing the Vikings QB of the future.
• Me:  Actually, this year has been eye opening in respect to my expectations regarding players.  I don't think I am alone in thinking Asamoah would make a big jump this year.  Who also thought Tonga would be an integral part of the defensive line?
• Flores:  He is the gift that keeps on giving.  He puts the players in the best position to be their best selves.  He has made Wonnum some money; Bullard also.  Frankly, the best thing I like about Flores is the amount he plays the back-ups -- he has really built depth -- it is a refreshing approach after years of not giving back-ups a few plays every game.  Troy Dye even had a sack today.   He has even silenced critics of the DBs (myself included).
• Dobbs:  Look, this was inevitable.  As teams got more film of Dobbs in the Viking offense, the better they could prepare.  Frankly, he could have a few more interceptions as teams are jumping routes on him left and right.  Frankly, I am amazed that the Cardinals trades Dobbs instead of Murray -- I would have traded Murray, and tanked the season.

We need to move past the Kwesi and Cine debacle.  Everybody knows it was a bad decision but every team makes boneheaded moves in free agency and the draft.  Remember when they passed on Warren Sapp and took Derick Alexander?  So these types of moves are not unique to the current Viking management.

With all of the injuries I think the coaching staff has done well to keep the team in the playoff hunt all the while getting rid of some high dollar contracts of aging players in the past off season.

One thing that is concerning and nobody talks about is Greg Joseph.  Anybody else have that feeling he would miss that field goal to send it to possible overtime.  He had already missed previously and the confidence level in sending him out there has to be pretty low.

I think Kwesi has to be given a lot of credit for bringing in backups for the offensive line.  With the injuries they have had lately putting in somewhat competent backups is vital.  So way to go Kwesi. 

@"pattersaur" said:

Yeah Joseph stinks right now. If he’s 2 for 2 on the day and been solid on the season, I’m guessing we kick at the end of the game rather than punt.

@"StickyBun" said: What I found interesting was the inside info the broadcasting crew said about talking with KOC about Dobbs. KOC said he felt he 'owed it to Dobbs to not treat him like all the other teams and see if they could make inroads with the bye week' (paraphrasing). lol, how'd that work out? I don't know if it was his hubris to think he could fix Dobbs or that he didn't have the guts to yank him and start Mullens against the Raiders. 

He needed to take a break from our winning streak and get Dobbs the NFL participation trophy he's been hankering for through 9 teams and 7 years.

He ran a mid-season experiment with a guy who's never cut it anywhere in 7 years, that managed to kill momentum and dump our playoff seeding to the bottom.  Yeah maybe he does think he's a genius. 

So Greg Joseph has made 49 kicks in a row under 40 yards? I saw that stat yesterday?

@"StickyBun" said: So Greg Joseph has made 49 kicks in a row under 40 yards? I saw that stat yesterday?

In todays game he should be able to kick beyond 40 yards.  At 40 yards that puts the line of scrimmage at the 23 yard line, Woof resign this guy now.  So far in 2023 he is 2-5 from 40 to 49 yards and 3-6 at 50 to 59 yards, hardly reassuring when you need a big kick.  

I watched something abput a week ago in which they lavished praise on Flores for his ability to be innovative with his schemes and use of no name players.

It was all wonderful until I comprared it to what KOC had done.  Remember that this was right after the Denver and then the Chicago loss.

As stated above, KOC is a great guy and has won over the team but where is the innovation and use of talent.  Dare I speak blasphemy but i thought KOC would be like Flores but on offense.

As the Raiders game unfolded, I thought about how we were doing the same thing as the Denver and the Chicago games.  Except thst Mattison was gashing the Raiders but I thought if we plan to beat the Raiders with a rushing game, we are screwed.

Was yesterday’s first half the best we could scheme for Dobbs?

 @"ThunderGod" said:

Was yesterday’s first half the best we could scheme for Dobbs?

Yeah, right ? In the middle of the third quarter Dobbs had 2 yards passing!
And this offensive explosion came after the bye week!

@"jargomcfargo" said:  @"ThunderGod" said:

Was yesterday’s first half the best we could scheme for Dobbs?

Yeah, right ? In the middle of the third quarter Dobbs had 2 yards passing! And this offensive explosion came after the bye week!

• Teams adjusted to Dobbs quickly. I had hoped with the bye and Jefferson coming back that Dobbs could get back on track, but that did not happen. Teams countered his mobility, were jumping on routes aggressively, and the pressure was getting to him consistently yesterday. Unfortunately, he did not have answers for any of these things and had to be benched.
• Switching to Mullens was the right call, he got the offense moving enough to get on the scoreboard and they were able to eek out a win. The real question is how quickly can defenses adjust to him and will be able to adapt once teams have film on him? It's interesting, in the past we had backups who just weren't capable of playing at all. Under O'Connell Hall, Dobbs, and Mullens have all looked like capable passers, at least for a while and the questions then start once teams have a chance to adapt to them.
• The quick rise and fall of Dobbs makes me think the chances of Cousins coming back have increased.
• The running game needs to be addressed in the off-season. Letting Cook go appears to have been the right call, but Mattison has not worked out as a primary back and while Chandler looks interesting at times, he's probably a better change of pace back. Hopefully, running back is a priority in the draft.
• The job that Flores has done with the defense is nothing short of amazing. This was not a unit that most people expected anything from, but they just keep getting better as the season wears on. Guys like Matellus, Bynum, Pace, and Tonga have really stepped up.

@"ThunderGod" said:

@"jargomcfargo" said:  @"ThunderGod" said:

Was yesterday’s first half the best we could scheme for Dobbs?

Yeah, right ? In the middle of the third quarter Dobbs had 2 yards passing! And this offensive explosion came after the bye week!

And how many TDs do we have in three weeks?  One?

Not throwing KOC under the bus but “C’mon man!” 

@"StickyBun" said: So Greg Joseph has made 49 kicks in a row under 40 yards? I saw that stat yesterday?

I saw that also and immediately thought -- I guess extra points don't figure into that stat.

I do wonder whether Dobbs throws a "catchable" ball?  Lots of drops with Dobbs.

@"VikingOracle" said:

@"StickyBun" said: What I found interesting was the inside info the broadcasting crew said about talking with KOC about Dobbs. KOC said he felt he 'owed it to Dobbs to not treat him like all the other teams and see if they could make inroads with the bye week' (paraphrasing). lol, how'd that work out? I don't know if it was his hubris to think he could fix Dobbs or that he didn't have the guts to yank him and start Mullens against the Raiders. 

That is very on brand for KOC.  Part of me respects that as I think it builds loyalty among the players but as I said above, I wish KOC had more of a killer instinct.  I do think we are seeing much player development under KOC but I worry deeply about Kwesi's analytical approach (I believe in analytics, I just think Kwesi does it poorly) and KOC being too nice to people outside the buildings (the other team and refs).

I couldn't be happier with the way KOC made the change.

KOC's moves are made for the team, not the fanbase.

He's got major stones and I respect that. Go KOC

@"VikingOracle" said: I do wonder whether Dobbs throws a "catchable" ball?  Lots of drops with Dobbs.

Definitely one of the things I was wondering as well.  When a QB is in sync with his receivers, generally predictable ball placement and velocity, and throwing a "catchable" ball is not the same between individuals.  It takes time.  I remember a hundred years ago in a JV game where I was thrown into WR (I was normally a halfback...long, long time ago), and we had a good QB who I had never practiced catching balls from.  He threw me a rifle shot, accurate as hell, and I was simply not prepared for the velocity and it bounced off my hands (why do some things haunt us for decades?)   Anyway, that is something that Cousins was pretty decent at...not all his passes were rifle shots, he was able to put a touch on them when necessary.  Not saying Dobbs didn't/couldn't do that...I remember one of his TD improvs featured a nice "touch" pass over the DB.  But it seemed like the more he played, the more he threw hard rifle shots.  And if he was a hair off, it could translate to ahead, over, behind the receiver by inches (or feet), making it more difficult than necessary.    So yes, I think you're on to something there, Oracle.