Diggs/Zimmer article
https://heavy.com/sports/minnesota-vikings/bills-stefon-diggs-justin-jefferson-trade/
@"Knucklehead" said: Every article that I've read about the Diggs trade fails to mention that the Vikes still have two 4th round picks (Buffalo & Chicago) in this upcoming draft as a result of the trade. The Chicago pick was Buffalo's 5th in last years draft that was traded for Chicago's 4th this year.You can't accurately judge the trade until all compensation has been utilized.
Name 1 competent starting player the Vikings have drafted in round 4 since 2010 (Everson Griffen).
@"Jor-El" said:@"Knucklehead" said: Every article that I've read about the Diggs trade fails to mention that the Vikes still have two 4th round picks (Buffalo & Chicago) in this upcoming draft as a result of the trade. The Chicago pick was Buffalo's 5th in last years draft that was traded for Chicago's 4th this year.You can't accurately judge the trade until all compensation has been utilized.
Name 1 competent starting player the Vikings have drafted in round 4 since 2010 (Everson Griffen).
I see what you did there by adding "competent"...nice
@"Jor-El" said:@"Knucklehead" said: Every article that I've read about the Diggs trade fails to mention that the Vikes still have two 4th round picks (Buffalo & Chicago) in this upcoming draft as a result of the trade. The Chicago pick was Buffalo's 5th in last years draft that was traded for Chicago's 4th this year.You can't accurately judge the trade until all compensation has been utilized.
Name 1 competent starting player the Vikings have drafted in round 4 since 2010 (Everson Griffen).
Well, there's that Diggs fella...heard of him?
@"Hawkvike25" said:@"Jor-El" said:@"Knucklehead" said: Every article that I've read about the Diggs trade fails to mention that the Vikes still have two 4th round picks (Buffalo & Chicago) in this upcoming draft as a result of the trade. The Chicago pick was Buffalo's 5th in last years draft that was traded for Chicago's 4th this year.You can't accurately judge the trade until all compensation has been utilized.
Name 1 competent starting player the Vikings have drafted in round 4 since 2010 (Everson Griffen).
I see what you did there by adding "competent"...nice
I guess I could take that word away, so people can say Ben Gedeon or TJ Clemmings...or even Jalyn Holmes or Dru Samia, if they want. The point remains: we got a 1st (Jefferson) for Diggs. The day 3 picks are not likely to be any more useful to this team than all the other day 3 picks Spielman has selected.
@"Jor-El" said:@"Hawkvike25" said:@"Jor-El" said:@"Knucklehead" said: Every article that I've read about the Diggs trade fails to mention that the Vikes still have two 4th round picks (Buffalo & Chicago) in this upcoming draft as a result of the trade. The Chicago pick was Buffalo's 5th in last years draft that was traded for Chicago's 4th this year.You can't accurately judge the trade until all compensation has been utilized.
Name 1 competent starting player the Vikings have drafted in round 4 since 2010 (Everson Griffen).
I see what you did there by adding "competent"...nice
I guess I could take that word away, so people can say Ben Gedeon or TJ Clemmings...or even Jalyn Holmes or Dru Samia, if they want. The point remains: we got a 1st (Jefferson) for Diggs. The day 3 picks are not likely to be any more useful to this team than all the other day 3 picks Spielman has selected.
You mean like Wonnum, Watts, Conklin, Odenigbo Weatherly, and Diggs?Hokay
@"BarrNone55" said:@"Jor-El" said:@"Hawkvike25" said:@"Jor-El" said:@"Knucklehead" said: Every article that I've read about the Diggs trade fails to mention that the Vikes still have two 4th round picks (Buffalo & Chicago) in this upcoming draft as a result of the trade. The Chicago pick was Buffalo's 5th in last years draft that was traded for Chicago's 4th this year.You can't accurately judge the trade until all compensation has been utilized.
Name 1 competent starting player the Vikings have drafted in round 4 since 2010 (Everson Griffen).
I see what you did there by adding "competent"...nice
I guess I could take that word away, so people can say Ben Gedeon or TJ Clemmings...or even Jalyn Holmes or Dru Samia, if they want. The point remains: we got a 1st (Jefferson) for Diggs. The day 3 picks are not likely to be any more useful to this team than all the other day 3 picks Spielman has selected.
You mean like Wonnum, Watts, Conklin, Odenigbo Weatherly, and Diggs?Hokay
Yes I do.
bottom line for whatever reason is Diggs wanted to be elsewhere. whether it was a “larger role”, disagreement with coaching / philosophy...whatever. His “cryptic tweets” were getting old. You play the hand that is dealt...
he didnt want to be here, we netted JJ, who is equally productive, younger, cheaper, (and until his outburst) less of a whiny bitch
@"Jor-El" said:@"Knucklehead" said: Every article that I've read about the Diggs trade fails to mention that the Vikes still have two 4th round picks (Buffalo & Chicago) in this upcoming draft as a result of the trade. The Chicago pick was Buffalo's 5th in last years draft that was traded for Chicago's 4th this year.You can't accurately judge the trade until all compensation has been utilized.
Name 1 competent starting player the Vikings have drafted in round 4 since 2010 (Everson Griffen).
Worst case scenario: The Vikes are over the cap heading into the offseason. Those two 4th round picks allow them to add quality depth while moving on from higher priced vets.Best case scenario: Rick drafts a future HOF'er with one of those picks. Although it's highly unlikely to be a QB or OL ;)
@"Hawkvike25" said:@"Vikergirl" said:@"Hawkvike25" said:@"mblack" said:@"Geoff Nichols" said:@"StickyBun" said:@"Geoff Nichols" said: The way it all kind of transpired is still odd. In the end Diggs wanted to be the focal point of the offense and that wasn't going to happen here. He's proven he can be the #1 on a good team in Buffalo so I'd say he was right in a way. The missing practices and such during the season was not alright. I can't remember where but he did admit that wasn't the right thing to do. But in the end if the Bills hadn't offered a 1st + I think the Vikings were ready to hold onto him.
Agreed. Let's not kid ourselves that Diggs isn't talented, he is. Some fans want to ignore that. And this board would be all red-assed if Jefferson didn't basically have the year he had. So it turned out ok for everyone involved really, which is generally not how it goes.
Last year was quite off since both the 49ers and Vikings traded star players for 1st round picks and ended up breaking even or winning the deals. Its not usually how it goes. I would say the 49ers broke even on the Buckner deal with Kinlaw. I'd argue the Vikings actually won the Diggs trade since the money since they found a top 15 receiver and saved significant money over the next 3 years.
Disclaimer:
If the goal of the game is to make the team better and subsequently win the Super bowl then I think the Vikings did not win the trade.So as of this year I strongly believe the Bills won the trade. Yes the Vikings saved money but it is still to be seen what they do with the savings.
- Diggs has helped the Bills get to the AFC championship game. A level they have not achieved for a long time. Without Diggs they don't get there. The same Diggs helped the Vikings get to the NFC championship game.
- Diggs has improved the Bills team more than JJ has improved the Vikings team regarding, impact on the game, wins and losses, post season, heck even individual stats
- If the Bills make the super bowl let a lone win it, they are runaway winners of the trade
Lolz ya, one player was the difference for the Bills. If we would have that same one player LOOK OUT, we may have won 8 games. Trade was equal, both sides won
He is a pretty big target for Allen. They compliment each other and make each other better. That is definitely a huge win.
It is, I'm not disagreeing with that but it's not like Josh Allen only elevated his game on throwing to Diggs. Countless times in the first two playoff games he was extending plays and hitting other receivers not named Diggs beyond the first down marker and close to out of bounds. Diggs didnt elevate the defense to only allow 3 points to the Ravens. Diggs has been a big piece to their success but they easily win the division without him IMO
I can't remember a bigger jump up in play then what Josh Allen had from year 2 to year 3 this year. His overall completion % was towards the bottom his first 2 years. I am not looking up stats but going by memory so might be off some. His completion % this year was towards the top. His long ball was known to be his biggest accuracy problem, again towards the bottom his first 2 years and now towards the Top. Just a huge turnaround by Allen. Diggs helps but not to this degree - IMO. The Bills developed Allen to perfection, I know he worked with a QB coach (Dorsey) and I think they made some changes to this motion. I think the light went on for him with a lot of good coaching. I'll add that Josh Allen is very bright for those that look at Wonderlics :)Anyway, I am with those (as I was when the trade went down), happy to get rid of a malcontent for a very good draft capital package. Not bad for a former 4th rounder at all. That was before we even drafted JJ. Now I really like the trade. Reminds me of the Harvin trade when we got great value for a malcontent. I understand what Jor-el is saying about putting up with professional athletes because they have been coddles for so long. But even coddled athletes know that you can't miss multiple practices (Iverson), meetings and then send immature tweets and diss your starting QB. I think Diggs knew exactly what he was doing and was trying to be traded for a few seasons.
@"Jor-El" said:LOL. Your problem is that you have zero perspective. Zip. Zilch. Nada.@"Knucklehead" said: Every article that I've read about the Diggs trade fails to mention that the Vikes still have two 4th round picks (Buffalo & Chicago) in this upcoming draft as a result of the trade. The Chicago pick was Buffalo's 5th in last years draft that was traded for Chicago's 4th this year.You can't accurately judge the trade until all compensation has been utilized.
Name 1 competent starting player the Vikings have drafted in round 4 since 2010 (Everson Griffen).You look at Jalyn Holmes and go what a schmuck, he's only started 9 games, without having any perspective on what kind of player typically gets taken in the 4th round. Go ahead, check it out. http://www.drafthistory.com/index.php/years/2018. See any superstars in the 4th? How many starters do you see? One or two? What about Jaleel Johnson? Go here: http://www.drafthistory.com/index.php/years/2017. With the exception of Eddie Jackson, there are no high end starters there. 95% of those guys are depth. Just like Holmes and Johnson. Hell, half are no longer playing in the NFL.
Sure, you can drop a few names like Eddie. There ARE exceptions; there always will be a handful. But a handful is kinda the average in that round. Everson Griffen was an exception. Getting a 4-time pro bowler in the 4th round is rare. Getting a talent like Stefon Diggs in the 5th is rare. You bitch about drafting a player like Odenigbo in the 7th round. But just getting contribution from a 7th rounder is pretty nuts. And if you do it more than once (Olabisi, Stephen, Kearse), it's not because you suck at drafting.
I know you have a boner for firing the entire front office, but there's a reason that our assistant GM has been the hottest name in the NFL for the last several years. It's not because we suck at drafting. There's a reason that no team in the NFL has drafted more pro bowlers than the Vikings in the last 10 years. It's not because we suck at drafting.
If you had the least amount of objectivity, or knowledge of the draft, you would see that. I know you're sad because our front office hasn't won a Super Bowl--count me in, brother--but you know who has? John Elway, who just fired himself as the shot caller in the Broncos draft room and hired our guy. You know why? Because he sucks at drafting. And he knows who doesn't.
@"Hawkvike25" said:@"Vikergirl" said:@"Hawkvike25" said:@"mblack" said:@"Geoff Nichols" said:@"StickyBun" said:@"Geoff Nichols" said: The way it all kind of transpired is still odd. In the end Diggs wanted to be the focal point of the offense and that wasn't going to happen here. He's proven he can be the #1 on a good team in Buffalo so I'd say he was right in a way. The missing practices and such during the season was not alright. I can't remember where but he did admit that wasn't the right thing to do. But in the end if the Bills hadn't offered a 1st + I think the Vikings were ready to hold onto him.
Agreed. Let's not kid ourselves that Diggs isn't talented, he is. Some fans want to ignore that. And this board would be all red-assed if Jefferson didn't basically have the year he had. So it turned out ok for everyone involved really, which is generally not how it goes.
Last year was quite off since both the 49ers and Vikings traded star players for 1st round picks and ended up breaking even or winning the deals. Its not usually how it goes. I would say the 49ers broke even on the Buckner deal with Kinlaw. I'd argue the Vikings actually won the Diggs trade since the money since they found a top 15 receiver and saved significant money over the next 3 years.
Disclaimer:
If the goal of the game is to make the team better and subsequently win the Super bowl then I think the Vikings did not win the trade.So as of this year I strongly believe the Bills won the trade. Yes the Vikings saved money but it is still to be seen what they do with the savings.
- Diggs has helped the Bills get to the AFC championship game. A level they have not achieved for a long time. Without Diggs they don't get there. The same Diggs helped the Vikings get to the NFC championship game.
- Diggs has improved the Bills team more than JJ has improved the Vikings team regarding, impact on the game, wins and losses, post season, heck even individual stats
- If the Bills make the super bowl let a lone win it, they are runaway winners of the trade
Lolz ya, one player was the difference for the Bills. If we would have that same one player LOOK OUT, we may have won 8 games. Trade was equal, both sides won
He is a pretty big target for Allen. They compliment each other and make each other better. That is definitely a huge win.
It is, I'm not disagreeing with that but it's not like Josh Allen only elevated his game on throwing to Diggs. Countless times in the first two playoff games he was extending plays and hitting other receivers not named Diggs beyond the first down marker and close to out of bounds. Diggs didnt elevate the defense to only allow 3 points to the Ravens. Diggs has been a big piece to their success but they easily win the division without him IMO
The defense was already legit and they got better. Diggs has been a superstar on offense and that's what they needed. Josh Allen did the work no doubt but putting Diggs on the team helped the offense go next level. He is the something extra that needs to be accounted for but won't always be.
@"MaroonBells" said:@"Jor-El" said:LOL. Your problem is that you have zero perspective. Zip. Zilch. Nada.@"Knucklehead" said: Every article that I've read about the Diggs trade fails to mention that the Vikes still have two 4th round picks (Buffalo & Chicago) in this upcoming draft as a result of the trade. The Chicago pick was Buffalo's 5th in last years draft that was traded for Chicago's 4th this year.You can't accurately judge the trade until all compensation has been utilized.
Name 1 competent starting player the Vikings have drafted in round 4 since 2010 (Everson Griffen).You look at Jalyn Holmes and go what a schmuck, he's only started 9 games, without having any perspective on what kind of player typically gets taken in the 4th round. Go ahead, check it out. http://www.drafthistory.com/index.php/years/2018. See any superstars in the 4th? How many starters do you see? One or two? What about Jaleel Johnson? Go here: http://www.drafthistory.com/index.php/years/2017. With the exception of Eddie Jackson, there are no high end starters there. 95% of those guys are depth. Just like Holmes and Johnson. Hell, half are no longer playing in the NFL.
Sure, you can drop a few names like Eddie. There ARE exceptions; there always will be a handful. But a handful is kinda the average in that round. Everson Griffen was an exception. Getting a 4-time pro bowler in the 4th round is rare. Getting a talent like Stefon Diggs in the 5th is rare. You bitch about drafting a player like Odenigbo in the 7th round. But just getting contribution from a 7th rounder is pretty nuts. And if you do it more than once (Olabisi, Stephen, Kearse), it's not because you suck at drafting.
I know you have a boner for firing the entire front office, but there's a reason that our assistant GM has been the hottest name in the NFL for the last several years. It's not because we suck at drafting. There's a reason that no team in the NFL has drafted more pro bowlers than the Vikings in the last 10 years. It's not because we suck at drafting.
If you had the least amount of objectivity, or knowledge of the draft, you would see that. I know you're sad because our front office hasn't won a Super Bowl--count me in, brother--but you know who has? John Elway, who just fired himself as the shot caller in the Broncos draft room and hired our guy. You know why? Because he sucks at drafting. And he knows who doesn't.
So your premise is that day 3 picks, even in the 4th round, shouldn't be expected to become high end starters, and the best we should expect is someone like Jalyn Holmes or Jaleel Johnson - that half of them are no longer in the NFL.Cool - you just blew up the argument Knucklehead (and many others) made: that we traded Diggs for MUCH MORE than Jefferson. That 4th and 5th Buffalo threw into the deal? That probably will be 1 washout like Beavers and 1 semi-decent backup like Holmes. That's by your own admission, just inevitable in the NFL, we've done no better or worse.
This is a Diggs thread and many people like to claim we got "a haul of draft picks" for Diggs, like what the Giants got for Beckham. But hey, I'm with you, brother - all we got is a 1st round pick in the 20s and a couple of late picks that are essentially scratch-off tickets. We're damn lucky that 1st turned into Jefferson, not Patterson or Treadwell.
@"Jor-El" said:@"MaroonBells" said:@"Jor-El" said:LOL. Your problem is that you have zero perspective. Zip. Zilch. Nada.@"Knucklehead" said: Every article that I've read about the Diggs trade fails to mention that the Vikes still have two 4th round picks (Buffalo & Chicago) in this upcoming draft as a result of the trade. The Chicago pick was Buffalo's 5th in last years draft that was traded for Chicago's 4th this year.You can't accurately judge the trade until all compensation has been utilized.
Name 1 competent starting player the Vikings have drafted in round 4 since 2010 (Everson Griffen).You look at Jalyn Holmes and go what a schmuck, he's only started 9 games, without having any perspective on what kind of player typically gets taken in the 4th round. Go ahead, check it out. http://www.drafthistory.com/index.php/years/2018. See any superstars in the 4th? How many starters do you see? One or two? What about Jaleel Johnson? Go here: http://www.drafthistory.com/index.php/years/2017. With the exception of Eddie Jackson, there are no high end starters there. 95% of those guys are depth. Just like Holmes and Johnson. Hell, half are no longer playing in the NFL.
Sure, you can drop a few names like Eddie. There ARE exceptions; there always will be a handful. But a handful is kinda the average in that round. Everson Griffen was an exception. Getting a 4-time pro bowler in the 4th round is rare. Getting a talent like Stefon Diggs in the 5th is rare. You bitch about drafting a player like Odenigbo in the 7th round. But just getting contribution from a 7th rounder is pretty nuts. And if you do it more than once (Olabisi, Stephen, Kearse), it's not because you suck at drafting.
I know you have a boner for firing the entire front office, but there's a reason that our assistant GM has been the hottest name in the NFL for the last several years. It's not because we suck at drafting. There's a reason that no team in the NFL has drafted more pro bowlers than the Vikings in the last 10 years. It's not because we suck at drafting.
If you had the least amount of objectivity, or knowledge of the draft, you would see that. I know you're sad because our front office hasn't won a Super Bowl--count me in, brother--but you know who has? John Elway, who just fired himself as the shot caller in the Broncos draft room and hired our guy. You know why? Because he sucks at drafting. And he knows who doesn't.
So your premise is that day 3 picks, even in the 4th round, shouldn't be expected to become high end starters, and the best we should expect is someone like Jalyn Holmes or Jaleel Johnson - that half of them are no longer in the NFL.Cool - you just blew up the argument Knucklehead (and many others) made: that we traded Diggs for MUCH MORE than Jefferson. That 4th and 5th Buffalo threw into the deal? That probably will be 1 washout like Beavers and 1 semi-decent backup like Holmes. That's by your own admission, just inevitable in the NFL, we've done no better or worse.
This is a Diggs thread and many people like to claim we got "a haul of draft picks" for Diggs, like what the Giants got for Beckham. But hey, I'm with you, brother - all we got is a 1st round pick in the 20s and a couple of late picks that are essentially scratch-off tickets. We're damn lucky that 1st turned into Jefferson, not Patterson or Treadwell.
Success is relative but I would argue the Vikings boast a list of mid to late round picks and UDFA's some other teams would die for. Thus Paton being so highly thought of. Picks regardless of round are not graded by if they become a star or high-end starter. If that were the case every team in the NFL would suck at drafting. Its more about what type of value do you extract from a specific pick?So looking at Treadwell you got a borderline starter at WR and spent a 1st round pick to achieve that, complete bust and a negative return on investment. Justin Jefferson is an example of the complete opposite. You got a record setting rookie receiver and it honestly wouldn't have mattered if you took him #1 overall since the ROI still would have passed. But guys like Bradbury are still good picks. No, he isn't a start and he does have flaws. But he is a league average starter, filled a need, and you get ROI since his current salary/cap his is less than what you'd pay for on the open market.
Those are first round picks but in the mid-rounds your goals are so different. You are looking to fill very specific needs, depth, and special teams. Filling those needs are not going to blow you away. The hope is that those guys stick in year 1 and then eventually evolve into more. That is where the Vikings kind of make their bread & butter. You don't need to be the best drafting team you just need to find the spots on the roster you can carry young players and allow them the time to develop. Look at these guys since 2016:
Troy Dye (2020), Harrison Hand (2020), Armon Watts (2019), Kris Boyd (2019), Tyler Conklin (2018), Ifeadi Odenigbo (2017), David Morgan (2016), Jayron Kearse (2016), Stephen Weatherly (2016)
None blow you away, and some may not even be stellar players in the future. But for the investment all have a solid ROI and if you think all teams have a list like this, that just isn't true.
Now if we want to continue to relate this thread solely to Diggs, look at it this way. The Vikings drafted him in the 5th round and were able to get 5 years of production, 4,600 yards, and 30 TDs. Then on top of that were able to trade him for a 1st, 5th, and 6th round pick in 2020 along with a 2021 4th. Using the trade value chart that is a 2500% return on investment without even accounting for the years of cheap production they got out of him. That makes up for a lot of misses along the way.
@"Vikergirl" said: We lucked out big time with Jefferson but Diggs was right about things with the offense. I am sick and tired of the offense being handcuffed. No more holding back. It's a scoring league and they have to evolve. I am happy for Diggs regardless of the so-called drama.Do we have to evolve because we are not scoring, or is it really fans dont like how we are scoring and their perception is we are not scoring? If we scored the exact same amount of points this year but by running less and throwing more people would be thrilled. The difference in points per game between Minnesota and the vaunted Chiefs offense? 2.8 points per game. Difference between Vikings and Bucs/Saints? 3.2 points per game. So they were about a field goal per game difference from being in the top three in scoring. Not saying there isnt work to be done, improve the line and watch out! But the idea that the offense was the problem this year is short sided.
@"MaroonBells" said:@"StickyBun" said: 2021 will be an interesting year in Minnesota. Diggs's success has been mitigated big time with Jefferson's success.
Imagine the typical talk radio fan if the Vikings had not drafted JJ...
Randy Moss, Troy Williamson. I was there. I was on many Vikings message boards when that happened. It wasn't good.
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