Was it the throw or was it the receiver?

rf54 wrote:

he did jump, your picture shows it, it just doesn't show what diesction he has to jump to try to catch the ball.
https://x.com/vikingzfanpage/status/2091215566052749371
everybody is saying it was a bad miss, only you are laying blame at Price's feet.

So because “everybody is saying it,” I'm supposed to stop looking at the play myself and just agree with the consensus? 😂

That's not really how I operate. We've already established that I think McCarthy could have thrown Price a better ball. I'm not arguing that point.

What I'm arguing is that two things can be true together: it can be a less-than-ideal throw AND Price can have done a poor job adjusting to it.

Sure, Price jumps, barely. The question is when he jumps, how much he jumps and where he's trying to meet the football. He's running full speed, the ball is coming in high and he's got to adjust his stride and timing to make the play. That's part of being an NFL receiver.

And no, I'm not saying Price should have made some spectacular Odell Beckham-type catch (or the one-hander he did last week). I'm saying that if you're an NFL receiver and the ball is high enough that you have to adjust your route and elevate to get it, you have to make that adjustment.

And I'm certainly not the only person who sees it this way. I didn't make the video below, and this is actually the first time I've seen it. I don't completely agree with the video's assessment that Price was only an inch or so off the ground, I think he gets maybe 10" haha, but the larger point is pretty obvious: he doesn't get much elevation relative to what the situation required.

So yes, McCarthy should have thrown a better ball. But I'm not willing to pretend that the receiver has no responsibility once the ball isn't perfect.

you and the person that created this video are lying to yourselves if you think he only jumps 1 inch or even 10 inches... Neither you or video poster acknowledge that he travels almost 10 feet or more from when he leaves the ground.

Why ask the question on the board if you don't really want to hear the answer? All the responses on this post feel it is a bad throw. Some do agree that both Price and JJ share the blame and your two things could be true theory. Most however, feel this miss is on JJ, so was the miss to Felton in the enzone as well.

Did you view the video that I posted from a different angle? You think Price doesn't jump enough after that view?

rf54 wrote:

you and the person that created this video are lying to yourselves if you think he only jumps 1 inch or even 10 inches... Neither you or video poster acknowledge that he travels almost 10 feet or more from when he leaves the ground.

Why ask the question on the board if you don't really want to hear the answer? All the responses on this post feel it is a bad throw. Some do agree that both Price and JJ share the blame and your two things could be true theory. Most however, feel this miss is on JJ, so was the miss to Felton in the enzone as well.

Did you view the video that I posted from a different angle? You think Price doesn't jump enough after that view?

RF, here we go again. This is starting to feel an awful lot like the Addison TD debate all over again. You see a bad throw and I'm apparently the guy who refuses to acknowledge it; I see a throw that could have been better and a receiver who could have done more with it.

I've already conceded McCarthy could have thrown Price a better ball. I'm simply not going to automatically assign 100% of the blame to him because that's where the consensus landed.

You're still arguing against a position I never took.

You see it one way, I see it another. That's literally why it's called an opinion. No need to tell me I'm "lying to myself" because I didn't join the consensus. 😉

We've clearly watched the same play and reached different conclusions. That's been our thing for a while now.

IceRatz16 wrote:

RF, here we go again. This is starting to feel an awful lot like the Addison TD debate all over again. You see a bad throw and I'm apparently the guy who refuses to acknowledge it; I see a throw that could have been better and a receiver who could have done more with it.
I've already conceded McCarthy could have thrown Price a better ball. I'm simply not going to automatically assign 100% of the blame to him because that's where the consensus landed.
You're still arguing against a position I never took.
You see it one way, I see it another. That's literally why it's called an opinion. No need to tell me I'm "lying to myself" because I didn't join the consensus. 😉
We've clearly watched the same play and reached different conclusions. That's been our thing for a while now.

I agree this has been ongoing between us, I recall the Addison throw discussion quite well.

I never, never said the throws were uncatchable , or that the receiver could not have made the catch. I never argued against your position that both things could be right.

What I did say is that the throw was poor. You asked "was it the throw or the receiver" that is the title of the thread. You said Price barely jumps, I argue that that is simply not honest and the picture you use to make your point is an angle that is a split second in time that does not truly show how hard Price tries to make the catch.

As far as that Addison non-catch last year, I seem to recall you said it was a "perfect pass" by JJM, which I argued it was a bad pass. Addison had to adjust his route, turn 180 degrees and leap for the catch. He landed on his back in the end zone and the hard landing allowed the ball to become loose from his body and then the Giants DB was able to knock the ball free. I still think a "perfect pass" would have led Addison away from the DB into the left corner of the end zone and it would have been an easy catch.

Yes we may be splitting hairs on our opinions, but you asked the question on a message board then argue when you get answers.

a better view of Price's leap

rf54 wrote:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DcWvhSugmF6/

a better view of Price's leap

This was the other angle I saw previously as well and thought it proved my point better showing Price barely got off the ground. He is not jumping, he is outstretching his arms and falling over like he's run out of real estate, rather than jumping in the air to reach the ball. Not a great play by either, but Price definitely did not get up in the air on a play where he should have.

The reason for the title was to get people thinking...was it really just McCarthy, because the masses say so, or was it the receiver...or was it both that share the blame?

The day will come when you look at JJ's problems and realize they are actually his problems, not everyone else's fault. And on that day the truth shall set you free.

IceRatz16 wrote:

This was the other angle I saw previously as well and thought it proved my point better showing Price barely got off the ground. He is not jumping, he is outstretching his arms and falling over like he's run out of real estate, rather than jumping in the air to reach the ball.

How is he barely getting off the ground? How far do you think he travels once he leaves his feet? I have to agree with Still Hurtn who posted

"Pygmalion Effect

This happens when you want someone to do well, so you mistakenly believe they are doing a great job even when they aren't. Because you expect them to be talented, your brain filters out their mistakes and only lets you see what you want to see."

You ignore many facts and search for minor ones that give you a smidgeon of hope that you will get your desired outcome.

IceRatz16 wrote:

This was the other angle I saw previously as well and thought it proved my point better showing Price barely got off the ground. He is not jumping, he is outstretching his arms and falling over like he's run out of real estate, rather than jumping in the air to reach the ball. Not a great play by either, but Price definitely did not get up in the air on a play where he should have.

The reason for the title was to get people thinking...was it really just McCarthy, because the masses say so, or was it the receiver...or was it both that share the blame?

If you've played any sport at all, you know jumping has to be timed so that it's in sync with your stride. Right handed people jump off their left leg. A QB has to give the receiver time to make that adjustment. It's not a calculated thing, it's just instinctive. The throw should've either had more arch or been thrown hard into the belly. This throw was neither. You can tell by Price's body language that this throw was not at all what he was expecting. There's no conspiracy theory here.

Vanguard83 wrote:

Given the choice of the two - the throw.
You can't rifle it (and high) to an open receiver. Whoever Van Demark was blocking elevated to block the throw, so the only validation I was thinking is JJM didn't want to have it knocked down. Nonetheless, Van Demark better learn to punch his man in the solar plexus (yeah - I'm that old) and it'll put an end to that ish quick.
Honestly it looked to me slower than some of his usual fastballs from last season. Passes gotta be catchable

That is something that most are ignoring. Defender jumped into his throwing lane and disrupted the pass. Still gotta put some air under it.

As to Price, he was sprinting out, not much time to jump as that pass got on him quick. So, yeah it was a bad pass, but with the caveat the defender made it more difficult.

So some of you may know or remember Mike Silver? Long time traditional sportswriter for Sports Illustrated back in the day, also worked at the NFL Network. Started off at the San Francisco Chronicle. Very solid, had some great, in-depth pieces over the years. He's at The Athletic now, just did the story on Justin Jefferson that is floating around on the board somewhere. So he's pretty friendly for the most part so I messaged him on X about McCarthy and what the vibe with the organization was, wasn't sure if he'd reply as I was asking for his opinion. He did reply with the following: 'I'd be very surprised if there's a future for JJ in Minnesota.....but weird things can happen sometimes in football'. I asked him because he was just in Minnesota doing this story and I'm sure he talked behind the scenes with people there.

StickierBuns wrote:

So some of you may know or remember Mike Silver? Long time traditional sportswriter for Sports Illustrated back in the day, also worked at the NFL Network. Started off at the San Francisco Chronicle. Very solid, had some great, in-depth pieces over the years. He's at The Athletic now, just did the story on Justin Jefferson that is floating around on the board somewhere. So he's pretty friendly for the most part so I messaged him on X about McCarthy and what the vibe with the organization was, wasn't sure if he'd reply as I was asking for his opinion. He did reply with the following: 'I'd be very surprised if there's a future for JJ in Minnesota.....but weird things can happen sometimes in football'. I asked him because he was just in Minnesota doing this story and I'm sure he talked behind the scenes with people there.

I remember Silver and I think I was the one that put up the article in the K1/Jefferson thread?

Anyways, I agree the odds seem to be going down for #9 here long-term, but we really dont know whats going on behind the scenes?

Everything may not be fine, but that doesnt mean he's got one foot out the door either.

I reserve the right to edit this if 9 becomes 3 on the depth chart. I hope it doesnt degrade that far, not what I want at all.

I could have caught that ball all day long (when younger but maybe even at 50 🤣) with no issues. It was an excellent throw. If you see the tape from the other side, it was the safest throw he could make. He could have tried to loft it, but then you risk a smart DB adjusting quick enough to pick it from a guy who’s only 5’9”. There was no easy way to get it by the defender - which again, if you watch the video, he did a great job getting it by him.

Ball speed - no clue what some of you are talking about. Price definitely reacted late, but he shouldn’t have. Perhaps, in his defense, he couldn’t see it because of the defender jumping, I’m not sure. What I do know is it wasn’t bad velocity. That’s a pass that should be caught 9 out of 10 times and it highlights an issue I've seen with Price in the preseason. He has footwork issues and gets a little discombobulated at times. He reminds me of a really fast guy who runs out of control at times. A normal WR or TE can jump up and grab that ball by putting their foot down and going up and spinning to face it. Price doesn’t do that. He jumps without putting his foot down to change that horizontal energy into a vertical direction. You’ve seen players and have probably done it yourself plenty of times. Perhaps Price’s slow reaction played a role, but he just kind of hopped up after that ball. I don’t think he gets even one foot above the ground and at 5’9” he’s gotta be able to do that. It’s simple body control and not the throw causing that.

The pass to Felton in the end zone: he could have and probably should have lofted it to the corner of the end zone - so bad throw in that sense. Instead he Favre’d it. I call it that, because Brett was the king of the high bullet in the back of the end zone. The ball went right through his hands and I gotta say, I’ve never seen Viking fans not say “it should be a catch when it hits your hands”. That was a tough catch, but should be made. It’s fascinating to me how fans are reacting to it.

The bomb - I’m reading people jam him up for this and it’s baffling. First, many QB’s take a sack on that play when they try to escape left from the defender who essentially had a free run from the right. I highly doubt Darnold isn’t sacked on that play. He showed great awareness and moved around the pocket to get into position to throw it. At this point, what kind of throw do you make? I’ve seen many fans claim he under threw him and should have hit him in stride.

Here’s the problem: it would take between 65 and 70 yards from his throwing position to hit him in stride. There are maybe one or two in the league capable of that and their accuracy gets erratic at that range having just scrambled in the pocket. As that is not even possible, what is a QB taught throwing into 1 v 1 coverage on the boundary? Hit the back shoulder and provide a high point so your WR has a good chance of making a play on it and even if in position, the DB will have a very hard time making a play on the ball. Watch the tape again. That’s about 55 air yards to nearly the exact spot you want it to be.

Finally, the ridiculous out route that hit, I think it was Price again, right in the chest and he dropped it. That long out route under heavy pressure was an elite throw. That’s pin point accuracy.

I think fans have lost their minds and I hope the team isn’t. If I were with a different team, the Vikings would be getting my call to see if they are stupid enough to trade him. I saw a ton of positives this preseason so far with the limited reps he’s had. He needs to work on pulling the trigger a tad faster, but he’s doing the one thing young guys usually struggle at and that’s working through his progressions well. His awareness is improving and is much better than early last year.

I’ve spent a lifetime watching Favre, Elway, Marino and more recently Matt Stafford sling the ball with serious velocity. JJM isn’t new in this regard. That’s something you can work with much easier than not enough juice.

Why didnt Phillips just run the damn ball?

I think he was calling the plays at that point?

purplefaithful wrote:

Why didnt Phillips just run the damn ball?
I think he was calling the plays at that point?

I don't remember what calls led up to that play call on 4th, but the TD was there. Price was open. So kinda hard to blame the play call. Don't make me go into my Burnsie rant! 😜

😄MaroonBells wrote:

I don't remember what calls led up to that play call on 4th, but the TD was there. Price was open. So kinda hard to blame the play call. Don't make me go into my Burnsie rant! 😜

Poor Schnelker…in this day and age we’d have a 3 page thread on Andersons shoe lace choices…😆

Havoc wrote:

I could have caught that ball all day long (when younger but maybe even at 50 🤣) with no issues. It was an excellent throw. If you see the tape from the other side, it was the safest throw he could make. He could have tried to loft it, but then you risk a smart DB adjusting quick enough to pick it from a guy who’s only 5’9”. There was no easy way to get it by the defender - which again, if you watch the video, he did a great job getting it by him.
Ball speed - no clue what some of you are talking about. Price definitely reacted late, but he shouldn’t have. Perhaps, in his defense, he couldn’t see it because of the defender jumping, I’m not sure. What I do know is it wasn’t bad velocity. That’s a pass that should be caught 9 out of 10 times and it highlights an issue I've seen with Price in the preseason. He has footwork issues and gets a little discombobulated at times. He reminds me of a really fast guy who runs out of control at times. A normal WR or TE can jump up and grab that ball by putting their foot down and going up and spinning to face it. Price doesn’t do that. He jumps without putting his foot down to change that horizontal energy into a vertical direction. You’ve seen players and have probably done it yourself plenty of times. Perhaps Price’s slow reaction played a role, but he just kind of hopped up after that ball. I don’t think he gets even one foot above the ground and at 5’9” he’s gotta be able to do that. It’s simple body control and not the throw causing that.
The pass to Felton in the end zone: he could have and probably should have lofted it to the corner of the end zone - so bad throw in that sense. Instead he Favre’d it. I call it that, because Brett was the king of the high bullet in the back of the end zone. The ball went right through his hands and I gotta say, I’ve never seen Viking fans not say “it should be a catch when it hits your hands”. That was a tough catch, but should be made. It’s fascinating to me how fans are reacting to it.
The bomb - I’m reading people jam him up for this and it’s baffling. First, many QB’s take a sack on that play when they try to escape left from the defender who essentially had a free run from the right. I highly doubt Darnold isn’t sacked on that play. He showed great awareness and moved around the pocket to get into position to throw it. At this point, what kind of throw do you make? I’ve seen many fans claim he under threw him and should have hit him in stride.
Here’s the problem: it would take between 65 and 70 yards from his throwing position to hit him in stride. There are maybe one or two in the league capable of that and their accuracy gets erratic at that range having just scrambled in the pocket. As that is not even possible, what is a QB taught throwing into 1 v 1 coverage on the boundary? Hit the back shoulder and provide a high point so your WR has a good chance of making a play on it and even if in position, the DB will have a very hard time making a play on the ball. Watch the tape again. That’s about 55 air yards to nearly the exact spot you want it to be.
Finally, the ridiculous out route that hit, I think it was Price again, right in the chest and he dropped it. That long out route under heavy pressure was an elite throw. That’s pin point accuracy.
I think fans have lost their minds and I hope the team isn’t. If I were with a different team, the Vikings would be getting my call to see if they are stupid enough to trade him. I saw a ton of positives this preseason so far with the limited reps he’s had. He needs to work on pulling the trigger a tad faster, but he’s doing the one thing young guys usually struggle at and that’s working through his progressions well. His awareness is improving and is much better than early last year.
I’ve spent a lifetime watching Favre, Elway, Marino and more recently Matt Stafford sling the ball with serious velocity. JJM isn’t new in this regard. That’s something you can work with much easier than not enough juice.

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