Hopefully they challenge and bring out the best in each other, that is the best outcome

Watching that video, I'm a bit more critical of some of those plays. He hesitates to throw to an open receiver window, until its too late. His footwork and jerky head movements are really visible. He's sometimes just plain inaccurate.

Those are all pretty fixable.

If he indeed can fix them, it is conceivable that he is the QBOTF for purple.

I actually strongly feel that one outcome is that having KM push him is going to make him better. We know he's his own worst enemy in terms of overly competitiveness and fire.

JJM clearly has the advantage in familiarity of KOC's playbook. But can he execute?

I see one scenario where he outplays KM and is annointed the starting QB. And then a fork in the road...does he stay healthy? If he gets banged up again, then our QB2 comes in and plays. If he plays like some of the excellent plays shown, with consistency this season, we just might have something.

Having said that, I still believe KOC is going to eventually name KM as the QB1. And the more I see this play out, it will be AFTER the last preseason game (Giants) which does two things....gives him maximum time to evaluate and still allows two weeks of practice as QB1 with the starters.

JustInTime wrote:

He’s definitely not the finished product. But when you’re a top 10 pick you’ve got to be closer than what he’s displayed so far to being the finished product. I’m still considering a class action suit vs IMG, the university of Michigan and Jim Harbaugh for false advertising and emotional distress. 😎
I’d also expect as a top ten pick some ability to overcome some adversity. The nonstop injuries are also concerning. The prevalent maturity issues. I’m also pretty sure other QBs have had children during the season. Why does he need special consideration for this? Is he the first QB to be in Europe while rehabbing an injury too? Cmon.
His inability to maximize Jefferson when a wide variety of other QBs have been able to is a huge red flag. He had some super productive games with Nick Mullens for Pete’s sake. Wentz got more out of Jefferson as a late August addition when Howell didn’t pan out.
Definitely not writing him off after 10 starts, but seeing as he should have 34 starts by now is extremely disappointing. Based on his pedigree and draft position, I think my perspective is just fine. ROI has been poor to date.

You keep saying he "should have" 34 starts by now. But he doesn't. That's the reality. Even if he wasn't injured, would he have started over Darnold, the all-world Superbowl Champion? Then would you and others still hold him accountable to not playing in the '24/'25 season? Did everyone measure the QBs who sat behind their current QB their rookie year also get judged and counted against them by not playing in those games too?

Development isn't measured by the calendar, especially during an injury that prevents you for putting in the work physically. It's measured by reps.

He lost an entire season to a major injury. He went over 600 days without meaningful football. Then he was thrown into the fire against a division champion on Monday Night Football. Whether he was drafted 10th or 110th doesn't magically replace the reps he lost.

As for overcoming adversity...I'd argue going 6-4 while dealing with everything he dealt with is overcoming adversity. Was it pretty? No. But he found ways to win games as a first-year starter, like he has done his entire career.

The Jefferson point also feels unfair. You're comparing a rookie with 10 career starts to veterans like Cousins, Darnold, Mullens and Wentz, guys with years of NFL experience. Of course they were further along in getting Jefferson the ball. That's exactly what experience is supposed to look like. Jefferson is also doubled most plays and for a rookie QB that had limited time getting in sync together, that is not always the ideal place to throw footballs.

And the maturity stuff...frankly, his teammates seem to be on board with him, so this lack of maturity is more of a fan-made concern.

But, the birth of his son isn't the sole point. I'm genuinely curious. How many rookie quarterbacks have had their first child during their second week in their first season as a starter? Maybe it's happened before, but it's hardly a common occurrence. Missing one practice to be there for your wife and newborn isn't a maturity issue, it's called priorities. The point is it was one more thing on a long list of disruptions during what was supposed to be his developmental year. By itself, it's insignificant. Added to the major injury, 600-day layoff, limited offseason work with Jefferson, Addison's suspension, constant offensive line changes, an ankle injury during the season, and then a hand injury...it's part of the overall context.

At the end of the day, I think you're grading McCarthy against the quarterback you hoped he'd already be. I'm grading him against the quarterback he actually was: a 22-year-old rookie with 10 NFL starts after losing essentially two years of football development and finishing with wins to finish the season.

Those are two very different measuring sticks.

Ultimately, the point is that McCarthy is doing what is necessary to work on his improvements from the season prior with some of the top coaches/instructors, his teammates, and his coaching staff. He's devoted to success and he most likely won't get to show those improvements this season, unless Kyler gets hurt. I wonder then, if Kyler wins the job and plays this season, will McCarthy's tally grow and be held to another 17 games missed?

I’m expecting too much of a top ten pick to start over, to that point, a journeyman QB?

Ok.

The best ability is availability. That’s part of the evaluation. That’s part of being in the NFL. That’s part of being a starting QB. Especially with a top 10 pick invested.

MaroonBells wrote:

It’s obviously too early to say much of anything definitive about JJ. He missed his first season, then missed several games, and more importantly, the practice reps that went with them. He’s had some terrific moments and some terrible ones. But all QBs have good and bad moments. 
Here’s what gives me pause: CONSISTENCY. You don’t have to be good all the time to make it in the NFL, but you have to be good more often than JJ's been. Without doubt, the time he’s missed disrupted his development and is probably a big reason for his lack of consistency. Still, consistency is the key for every young QB in the NFL, and what separates the hits from the busts. 
For example, Zach Wilson is widely considered a bust. In his 3rd season he beat Houston 30-6 and threw for 300 yards, with 2 TDs, a 77% completion percentage and a 117 passer rating. Marcus Mariota is also considered a bust. In his NFL debut he threw 4 TDs and earned a perfect 158.3 passer rating. In his 2nd season Mitch Trubisky had a game where he threw for 354 yards and a whopping SIX TD passes. Blake Bortles once threw for 376 yards and 4 TDs. Hell, in a win against the Packers one year, even Christian Ponder threw for 3 TDs and earned a 142 passer rating. Wilson, Mariota, Trubiski, Fields, Harrington, Bortles, Ponder, Young, Leinart….all of them have had really good games that I'm certain were celebrated by their fans and QB analysts. But none of them could be consistently good and all of them failed.
McCarthy has had a couple decent games and some really nice moments that should give all of us hope. But he’s yet to even have THAT kind of game, the kind of game mentioned above, despite being in a more QB-friendly offense than any of the QBs mentioned above. Can he do it? Absolutely. But until he does, I’d proceed with caution.

I want winners and champions, not guys who are fantasy stars that cannot win the big games. Of all of those guys you mentioned, who has led their team to a Championship? How about a winning season?

McCarthy has one season under his belt and already has more winning seasons than Joey and Matt and tied with 4 other QBs you mentioned. All despite coming off a season-ending injury the year prior. Winning is all that matters in this league, not your fantasy team performance.

0 winning seasons in the NFL:

Joey Harrington and Matt Leinart

1 winning season in the NFL:

Zach Wilson (2022 5-4), Justin Fields (2024 4-2), Christian Ponder (2012 10-6), Blake Bortles (2017 10-6, won two playoff games and lost in AFCCG),

3 winning seasons in the NFL:

Marcus Mariota (2018 8-6; 2017 9-6, won in first round of playoffs; 2016 8-7), Mitch Trubisky (2020 6-4, lost in first round of playoffs, 2019 8-7, 2018 11-3, lost in first round of playoffs), and Vince Young (2009 8-2; 2007 9-6, lost first round of playoffs; 2006 8-6)

None of them won anything meaningful, other than Bortles winning two playoff games in his only time in the playoffs.

JustInTime wrote:

I’m expecting too much of a top ten pick to start over, to that point, a journeyman QB?
Ok.
The best ability is availability. That’s part of the evaluation. That’s part of being in the NFL. That’s part of being a starting QB. Especially with a top 10 pick invested.

I don't disagree with you on availability. However, I still see these injuries as more fluke than the norm for him, since he has never had injury issues playing football and hockey throughout his career leading up to the NFL.

Good points on both sides of it...

All we can do is this...

And that wait might be till 27.

IceRatz16 wrote:

I want winners and champions, not guys who are fantasy stars that cannot win the big games. Of all of those guys you mentioned, who has led their team to a Championship? How about a winning season?
McCarthy has one season under his belt and already has more winning seasons than Joey and Matt and tied with 4 other QBs you mentioned. All despite coming off a season-ending injury the year prior. Winning is all that matters in this league, not your fantasy team performance.

0 winning seasons in the NFL:
Joey Harrington and Matt Leinart
1 winning season in the NFL:
Zach Wilson (2022 5-4), Justin Fields (2024 4-2), Christian Ponder (2012 10-6), Blake Bortles (2017 10-6, won two playoff games and lost in AFCCG),
3 winning seasons in the NFL:
Marcus Mariota (2018 8-6; 2017 9-6, won in first round of playoffs; 2016 8-7), Mitch Trubisky (2020 6-4, lost in first round of playoffs, 2019 8-7, 2018 11-3, lost in first round of playoffs), and Vince Young (2009 8-2; 2007 9-6, lost first round of playoffs; 2006 8-6)

None of them won anything meaningful, other than Bortles winning two playoff games in his only time in the playoffs.

Oh my. Oh my sweet Baby Jesus, protect this young man from the realities of the world.

So, in your mind, McCarthy is the reason we had a winning season last year, despite throwing more picks than TDs, which NOBODY still does, and whose passer rating and completion percentage were historically bad.

If only JJ had a halfway decent defense we might've made the playoffs.

purplefaithful wrote:

Good points on both sides of it...
All we can do is this...
And that wait might be till 27.

Hopefully someone steps up and runs away with it decisively.

MaroonBells wrote:

Oh my. Oh my sweet Baby Jesus, protect this young man from the realities of the world.
So, in your mind, McCarthy is the reason we had a winning season last year, despite throwing more picks than TDs, which NOBODY still does, and whose passer rating and completion percentage were historically bad.
If only JJ had a halfway decent defense we might've made the playoffs.

He had 15 TDs to 12 picks. You have to account for his rushing TDs as well. 11 throwing and 4 rushing. If he doesn't run for a couple of those TDs against NFC North foes, the Vikings don't win those games. He also drove down and threw TDs against the Bears (second game) and Cowboys (on the road in Primetime) in the 4th quarter to put his team in the lead.

But we should be more focused on and concerned about all the things he needs to work on, which I understand from fans are his maturity, his footwork, his elbow, his arm angle, his weight, his interceptions, processing quicker, recognizing when guys are open, not getting injured, and be thankful that the defense is helping out (save for the second Bears game). Despite those "issues", he was still 6-4 (so was the defense in those games). Not bad for a rookie coming off injury rehab.

MaroonBells wrote:

Oh my. Oh my sweet Baby Jesus, protect this young man from the realities of the world.
So, in your mind, McCarthy is the reason we had a winning season last year, despite throwing more picks than TDs, which NOBODY still does, and whose passer rating and completion percentage were historically bad.
If only JJ had a halfway decent defense we might've made the playoffs.

I understand the dog ate his playbook.

IceRatz16 wrote:

He had 15 TDs to 12 picks. You have to account for his rushing TDs as well. 11 throwing and 4 rushing. If he doesn't run for a couple of those TDs against NFC North foes, the Vikings don't win those games. He also drove down and threw TDs against the Bears (second game) and Cowboys (on the road in Primetime) in the 4th quarter to put his team in the lead.
But we should be more focused on and concerned about all the things he needs to work on, which I understand from fans are his maturity, his footwork, his elbow, his arm angle, his weight, his interceptions, processing quicker, recognizing when guys are open, not getting injured, and be thankful that the defense is helping out (save for the second Bears game). Despite those "issues", he was still 6-4 (so was the defense in those games). Not bad for a rookie coming off injury rehab.

purplefaithful wrote:

JJ deserves a TON OF CREDIT for keeping his frustration (for the most part) out of the public eye.
Glad to hear he is working with both QB's the remaining few weeks of their summer vacation.
He'll let it play out some, but imo the sooner KOC calls the competition over the better...For the locker room and fans.

Consummate professional at a position full of divas.

MaroonBells wrote:

It’s obviously too early to say much of anything definitive about JJ. He missed his first season, then missed several games, and more importantly, the practice reps that went with them. He’s had some terrific moments and some terrible ones. But all QBs have good and bad moments. 
Here’s what gives me pause: CONSISTENCY. You don’t have to be good all the time to make it in the NFL, but you have to be good more often than JJ's been. Without doubt, the time he’s missed disrupted his development and is probably a big reason for his lack of consistency. Still, consistency is the key for every young QB in the NFL, and what separates the hits from the busts. 
For example, Zach Wilson is widely considered a bust. In his 3rd season he beat Houston 30-6 and threw for 300 yards, with 2 TDs, a 77% completion percentage and a 117 passer rating. Marcus Mariota is also considered a bust. In his NFL debut he threw 4 TDs and earned a perfect 158.3 passer rating. In his 2nd season Mitch Trubisky had a game where he threw for 354 yards and a whopping SIX TD passes. Blake Bortles once threw for 376 yards and 4 TDs. Hell, in a win against the Packers one year, even Christian Ponder threw for 3 TDs and earned a 142 passer rating. Wilson, Mariota, Trubiski, Fields, Harrington, Bortles, Ponder, Young, Leinart….all of them have had really good games that I'm certain were celebrated by their fans and QB analysts. But none of them could be consistently good and all of them failed.
McCarthy has had a couple decent games and some really nice moments that should give all of us hope. But he’s yet to even have THAT kind of game, the kind of game mentioned above, despite being in a more QB-friendly offense than any of the QBs mentioned above. Can he do it? Absolutely. But until he does, I’d proceed with caution.

Fair enough. But what stood out to me was how JJ improved after KOC stopped trying to rewire him midseason. Iceratz explained the roller coaster well, but for me once JJ stopped worrying about mechanics and just played, he was much better. If we beat Chicago (special teams loss in the last minute), we might have won the division and hosted a playoff game. We were close.

But yeah, the injuries have been worrisome as well as lack of maturity. Hopefully a year under his belt and some time to reflect on the criticism will help him mature. I still look forward to a long productive career for him, as a Viking.

greediron wrote:

Fair enough. But what stood out to me was how JJ improved after KOC stopped trying to rewire him midseason. Iceratz explained the roller coaster well, but for me once JJ stopped worrying about mechanics and just played, he was much better. If we beat Chicago (special teams loss in the last minute), we might have won the division and hosted a playoff game. We were close.

But yeah, the injuries have been worrisome as well as lack of maturity. Hopefully a year under his belt and some time to reflect on the criticism will help him mature. I still look forward to a long productive career for him, as a Viking.

No question the Vikings were close to making the playoffs last year. I just don't think that had much to do with JJ McCarthy. He had some good moments, but I think our winning record had much more to do with a defense that was putting up marks the NFL hadn't seen in 37 years.

I think it's OK to root for JJ, to have hope in how much he improved last year, to believe he still has a future in the NFL as a starting QB (I do)...and still be honest with ourselves about how poorly he played last year.

MaroonBells wrote:

No question the Vikings were close to making the playoffs last year. I just don't think that had much to do with JJ McCarthy. He had some good moments, but I think our winning record had much more to do with a defense that was putting up marks the NFL hadn't seen in 37 years.
I think it's OK to root for JJ, to have hope in how much he improved last year, to believe he still has a future in the NFL as a starting QB (I do)...and still be honest with ourselves about how poorly he played last year.

The D was truly remarkable last season, might have been BFlo's best year of coaching in the pro's. I think their accomplishments were massively under appreciated/taken for granted by most Viking fans.

DAMN I hate losing Greenard.

^^^ at the bold

JJM got lots to improve on, but I'm also in the camp of "I think" he has a future as a starter in the NFL? I think...

All that said, Murray was just too good to pass on at that compensation. If K1 wasn't available? The Vikings would have still needed to bring in legit competition for Qb1. Simply because JJM didnt play well enough to lock-down the job in 25.

Onward we go...TC isnt that far away :)