Murray by the numbers

MAD GAINZ wrote:

...  You don't bench your top 10 QB pick after 10 starts and then turn back to him.

StickierBuns wrote:

This^

Its the only thing I've ever said about this with the strongest intent. Its never happened before and it sure as hell isn't going to happen now. Why some fans think this isn't the case is honestly astounding to me. Its the the most glaring lack-of-faith move that KOC could make and he's making it. Even if Murray shits the bed in Minnesota, they are DONE with McCarthy. So it is what it is and KOC needs to keep his yapper shut about organizations failing QBs because in hindsight it now  sounds naive and self-serving. The moral: not every QB can be coached up.

I believe in KOC + KOC is in on Kyler Murray = a big year for Minnesota. Simple math. Anything else and maybe another baby, a very tall one, is going to go out with the bathwater as well. I sincerely hope that isn't the case and I'd rather just be very wrong about JJM than being wrong about KOC.

Like what are some similar situations that have happened in the past, where a team with a young inexperienced QB had the opportunity to get a starting caliber QB for free?

I can’t think of one, I don’t think history is of much use, because this isn’t a normal situation.  Literally every team should have been trying to get Kyler Murray for $1.3M(?).  Because the Vikings won this lottery, doesn’t mean that JJM is shit, and even if he had a rough half a season of play, which almost all first time QBs do, it doesn’t mean that the Vikings are done with him.

And lets be honest.  The Cardinals let Murray go for a reason.  What are the historical precedences where a team gets rid of their starting caliber QB and eats a ton of cap to do so?  For the most part, those are guys that suck and are no longer worth having on the team, because teams don’t usually have backup plans and cutting your starting QB to get back on the “trying to find a QB” train is incredibly painful.  The only one that was really worth it was the Packers moving from Rodgers to Love and like how worth it was it for them?  If we're using historical precedence for one, are we using it for both QBs?

Like if you bring your wife’s cooking to work for lunch, and then the company surprises you by giving you a free restaurant lunch.  It doesn’t mean your wife’s cooking sucks.  Maybe it does, but maybe free restaurant lunch is also nice.

supafreak84 wrote:
the choice should be McCarthy every time and OConnell should be made to either sink or swim based on McCarthy's development and how he plays. But nope, we have an incompetent ownership group who once again bows down at the thrown and gives a guy who's never won jack shit a reprieve and even more power to do what he wants.

The irony is crazy rich here given how much you hated KAM, because KOC maneuvering him out of the way pretty much was the move needed to ditch JJM.  I believe KAM's long term plan at QB meant he would have insisted on what you want above - KOC sinks or swims with JMM.  And I am convinced that the weirdly timed firing was all about that power struggle and KOC (possibly with an assist from Flores) won it with the win-now Wilfs.  The awkwardness Mark Wilf displayed in that post-firing presser said it all. 

If the guy you hated was still here I think JJM would still be QB1 whether KOC liked it or not because KAM would not have gone after Kyler.  His future was tied to JJM, but somehow KOC the politician was able to smooth-talk his bosses into a different reality.  JJM griddying it in Dallas and saying coach said don't and that inspired him to do it... that's kinda like running to the sidelines and screaming, "Nine!!" at KOC while holding up two middle fingers.  That and a whole bunch of other stuff seems to have soured KOC on the kid.  So here we are in that different reality, with a lot of fans bewildered at how it went down.  The very dysfunctional Vikings org under the Wilfs marches on.

comet52 wrote:

The irony is crazy rich here given how much you hated KAM, because KOC maneuvering him out of the way pretty much was the move needed to ditch JJM.  I believe KAM's long term plan at QB meant he would have insisted on what you want above - KOC sinks or swims with JMM.  And I am convinced that the weirdly timed firing was all about that power struggle and KOC (possibly with an assist from Flores) won it with the win-now Wilfs.  The awkwardness Mark Wilf displayed in that post-firing presser said it all. 

If the guy you hated was still here I think JJM would still be QB1 whether KOC liked it or not because KAM would not have gone after Kyler.  His future was tied to JJM, but somehow KOC the politician was able to smooth-talk his bosses into a different reality.  JJM griddying it in Dallas and saying coach said don't and that inspired him to do it... that's kinda like running to the sidelines and screaming, "Nine!!" at KOC while holding up two middle fingers.  That and a whole bunch of other stuff seems to have soured KOC on the kid.  So here we are in that different reality, with a lot of fans bewildered at how it went down.  The very dysfunctional Vikings org under the Wilfs marches on.

But you are essentially washing OConnell of any blame in using a top 10 pick to draft McCarthy or his development (or lack there of) as a quarterback. To think OConnell wasn't hugely involved in the drafting of McCarthy would be extremely short sighted. Yes, KAM was a problem and I said it from day one, but to me, OConnell showed his true colors this last season and now I think only half the problem has been eliminated. I don't believe him to be the offensive savant he is portrayed to be and after his whole "Organizations fail young quarterbacks before young quarterbacks fail organizations" shtick that's been echoed ad nauseum, then he goes out and does that EXACT thing to McCarthy in an effort to save his own ass! Cant make this stuff up.You are absolutely right though in that the eternal dysfunction of this franchise under Wilf ownership marches on.

comet52 wrote:

The irony is crazy rich here given how much you hated KAM, because KOC maneuvering him out of the way pretty much was the move needed to ditch JJM.  I believe KAM's long term plan at QB meant he would have insisted on what you want above - KOC sinks or swims with JMM.  And I am convinced that the weirdly timed firing was all about that power struggle and KOC (possibly with an assist from Flores) won it with the win-now Wilfs.  The awkwardness Mark Wilf displayed in that post-firing presser said it all. 

If the guy you hated was still here I think JJM would still be QB1 whether KOC liked it or not because KAM would not have gone after Kyler.  His future was tied to JJM, but somehow KOC the politician was able to smooth-talk his bosses into a different reality.  JJM griddying it in Dallas and saying coach said don't and that inspired him to do it... that's kinda like running to the sidelines and screaming, "Nine!!" at KOC while holding up two middle fingers.  That and a whole bunch of other stuff seems to have soured KOC on the kid.  So here we are in that different reality, with a lot of fans bewildered at how it went down.  The very dysfunctional Vikings org under the Wilfs marches on.

I don't necessarily agree with everything here, but I do think there may be some truth in your interpretation of how things went down. I think KOC and the Vikings were onto Kyler the minute he was benched in Az. At that point, they likely knew the Cards were tanking and would very likely have to release Murray, putting him squarely in KOC's' crosshairs. The power struggle that you refer to may have occurred at this time.

 You don't bench your top 10 QB pick after 10 starts and then turn back to him.

This^

Its the only thing I've ever said about this with the strongest intent. Its never happened before and it sure as hell isn't going to happen now. Why some fans think this isn't the case is honestly astounding to me. Its the the most glaring lack-of-faith move that KOC could make and he's making it. Even if Murray shits the bed in Minnesota, they are DONE with McCarthy. So it is what it is and KOC needs to keep his yapper shut about organizations failing QBs because in hindsight it now  sounds naive and self-serving. The moral: not every QB can be coached up.

I believe in KOC + KOC is in on Kyler Murray = a [b]big[/b] year for Minnesota. Simple math. Anything else and maybe another baby, a very tall one, is going to go out with the bathwater as well. I sincerely hope that isn't the case and I'd rather just be very wrong about JJM than being wrong about KOC.

StickierBuns wrote:
None of this matters. Not one word if you believe in your 23 year old QB or decide you want to continue to develop him. KOC has decided not to already, after spouting things he thinks sound good but doesn't have the balls to follow through with on how organizations fail QBs. He's a hypocrite. Nothing new there because society is full of them. When you don't give your drafted young QB reps, which is what he needs desperately, what changes next year? He's in stasis, frozen in time. Not sure how many times it needs to be said. I don't know what some of you are smoking, but the JJM era as the QBOTF is over. But it seems very important for a few on the board to imagine it isn't for some reason. I won't be changing any minds, and I've given all the reasons in various other threads the last week or so. JJ is a dead man walking, when is the only question.

For someone who frequently (and correctly) laments the extremism in social media, you sure do go to the extreme here.  There a hundred degrees of possible outcomes that still have to play out. There is no black and white in this at all, just a big cloud of gray. But for the folks who wanted JJ QB1, that’s it. It’s over. Dig your own grave. We’re done. We’re taking our “nine” and going home!

I don’t know if that’s how y’all feel or not, but that’s kinda how it comes off.

MaroonBells wrote:

For someone who frequently (and correctly) laments the extremism in social media, you sure do go to the extreme here.  There a hundred degrees of possible outcomes that still have to play out. There is no black and white in this at all, just a big cloud of gray. But for the folks who wanted JJ QB1, that’s it. It’s over. Dig your own grave. We’re done. We’re taking our “nine” and going home!

I don’t know if that’s how y’all feel or not, but that’s kinda how it comes off.

It's more about the overall dysfunction of the organization, basing this "competitive rebuild" the last four years around drafting a rookie franchise quarterback on a friendly contract to build around, then throwing away that investment after an extremely small sample size because the coach is now on the hot seat (he is) and has been granted control over the organization by ownership even though he's won NOTHING. Nevermind the hypocrisy of "organizations fail young quarterbacks before young quarterbacks fail organizations" tag line which will live in organizational infamy after flushing away your top ten drafted quarterback after only 10 games played. It's just the utter ridiculousness of this organization from the top down and how they conduct business. Don't care about offseason awards where we get patted on the back for having the nicest shitters in the outhouses. When it comes to making sensible football decisions....they suck.

I was told to throw out kyler's stats

lol, yeah because so many here did the same with JJM's stats.  :rolleyes:

supafreak84 wrote:
But you are essentially washing OConnell of any blame

I'm not and if you read my posts you know I'm not particularly a KOC fan.   He's a politician whose in-game chops are seriously lacking imho.  I was not commenting in any way on the dynamics of the decision to draft JJM.  I'm only commenting on the current situation where KOC has gained control and is driving the QB change and pointing out that whether you like KAM or not, his removal paved the way to ditch JJM which you and others are very upset about.

StickierBuns wrote:
he thinks sound good but doesn't have the balls to follow through with on how organizations fail QBs.

That statement has become a self-fulfilling prophecy it seems.  The thing about guys whose best skill is talk is that the talk is ever-changing depending upon where the wind blows.   2 years ago he stood on a field and said we've got our franchise qb, your worries are over Viking fans!   Today it's telling Kyler he could be the long-term answer.  And oh yeah, "competition."  

I'm not wedded to JJM; while I was hopeful, I knew before he was drafted there were question marks like with any young guy.  The performance so far has caused me to mostly lose interest.  And it's clear that he and KOC aren't on the same page. 

So I'm sticking to what I said - screw it, I'll just root for Kyler to go boom not bust and see how it goes.  I'm kinda too tired to give a flying fuck any more.  If they win, great.  If they suck I'll come here and make fun of them for kicks.  Win-win! ;)  The worst though would be 10-7, wild card loss, Kevin keeps the job, Kyler's up and down but of course gets (over)paid, we have a down year in 2027 because that's how this franchise does it.   The same old merry-go-round of average.  I'd rather be 13-3 or 3-13 and a new regime than more of that crap.

comet52 wrote:
I'm not and if you read my posts you know I'm not particularly a KOC fan.   He's a politician whose in-game chops are seriously lacking imho.  I was not commenting in any way on the dynamics of the decision to draft JJM.  I'm only commenting on the current situation where KOC has gained control and is driving the QB change and pointing out that whether you like KAM or not, his removal paved the way to ditch JJM which you and others are very upset about.

It's upsetting for the fact that OConnell was a massive part (probably the biggest) in the decision to draft McCarthy, so KAM gets shitcanned (and deservedly so), but OConnell gets what...more organizational control and the ability to just move off McCarthy after ten games when he's the "quarterback whisperer" and gave his stamp of approval in using a top ten pick to draft him? How does that work? Sorry, but his ass should be tied to McCarthy's hip as a package deal and his job should ride on whether McCarthy sinks or swims this upcoming season and not piecing together another 8, 9 or 10 win season with Kyler Murray running around.

supafreak84 wrote:

It's upsetting for the fact that OConnell was a massive part (probably the biggest) in the decision to draft McCarthy, so KAM gets shitcanned (and deservedly so), but OConnell gets what...more organizational control and the ability to just move off McCarthy after ten games when he's the "quarterback whisperer" and gave his stamp of approval in using a top ten pick to draft him? How does that work? Sorry, but his ass should be tied to McCarthy's hip as a package deal and his job should ride on whether McCarthy sinks or swims this upcoming season and not piecing together another 8, 9 or 10 win season with Kyler Murray running around.

I don't call him the Master Politician for nothing.    And well, it's the Wilfs.  They haven't done anything in 21 years to tell me they know how to put together a championship football org.  I have a long list of dumb stuff they've done but in the end we're just along for the ride wherever it goes.

At this point:

1). Waiting for FA to conclude and the draft to begin
2). Waiting for the GM search to commence and conclude
3). Waiting for OTA's and to hear from the players/coaches again

I especially want hear from JJ and see how he's doing...

Like what are some similar situations that have happened in the past, where a team with a young inexperienced QB had the opportunity to get a starting caliber QB for free?

I can’t think of one, I don’t think history is of much use, because this isn’t a normal situation.  Literally every team should have been trying to get Kyler Murray for $1.3M(?).  Because the Vikings won this lottery, doesn’t mean that JJM is shit, and even if he had a rough half a season of play, which almost all first time QBs do, it doesn’t mean that the Vikings are done with him.

And lets be honest.  The Cardinals let Murray go for a reason.  What are the historical precedences where a team gets rid of their starting caliber QB and eats a ton of cap to do so?  For the most part, those are guys that suck and are no longer worth having on the team, because teams don’t usually have backup plans and cutting your starting QB to get back on the “trying to find a QB” train is incredibly painful.  The only one that was really worth it was the Packers moving from Rodgers to Love and like how worth it was it for them?  If we're using historical precedence for one, are we using it for both QBs?

Like if you bring your wife’s cooking to work for lunch, and then the company surprises you by giving you a free restaurant lunch.  It doesn’t mean your wife’s cooking sucks.  Maybe it does, but maybe free restaurant lunch is also nice.

None of this matters. Not one word if you believe in your 23 year old QB or decide you want to continue to develop him. KOC has decided not to already, after spouting things he thinks sound good but doesn't have the balls to follow through with on how organizations fail QBs. He's a hypocrite. Nothing new there because society is full of them. When you don't give your drafted young QB reps, which is what he needs desperately, what changes next year? He's in stasis, frozen in time. Not sure how many times it needs to be said. I don't know what some of you are smoking, but the JJM era as the QBOTF is over. But it seems very important for a few on the board to imagine it isn't for some reason. I won't be changing any minds, and I've given all the reasons in various other threads the last week or so. JJ is a dead man walking, when is the only question.
[hr]

This isnt directed at you, but at this visceral (hard for me to understand) reaction some Viking fans have being enraged at the org taking cover after JJM stunk up the joint in 25. 

Are they really going to risk another wasted year for Darrisaw, TJH, Jettas, Gink, Greenard et al? Were they supposed to ignore Murray shaking loose? Wanting to resurrect here? At $1.5m? With no long-term commitment to kick the tires? 

Its ok, it can be directed at me, I'm a big boy. ;) 

For me, I'm not enraged, I'm more stupefied than anything that he's giving up already. And its not just me on this board saying it. I'm all for KOC strategizing in whatever manner he sees fit, its his ass on the line. But he needs to win with Murray, that's it. The Vikings were a frog hair away from the playoffs last year with very inconsistent and at times shitty QB play. So JJ isn't going to improve any more? He's right now the QB he's going to be forever? Just another Viking's QB carousel in a long, long line of carousels. 

No worries. Just win, baby. That's all O'Connell has to do. I'm ready to kneel at the altar of the 'QB Whisperer'*

*when its convenient

For someone who frequently (and correctly) laments the extremism in social media, you sure do go to the extreme here.  There a hundred degrees of possible outcomes that still have to play out. There is no black and white in this at all, just a big cloud of gray. But for the folks who wanted JJ QB1, that’s it. It’s over. Dig your own grave. We’re done. We’re taking our “nine” and going home!

I don’t know if that’s how y’all feel or not, but that’s kinda how it comes off.

Like I said, my thoughts are all over on various threads over the last week, I don't want to belabor those points anymore in new ones. Everyone gets to think their own thoughts on my opinions and vice versa. 

[img]https://gifdb.com/images/high/seinfeld-thumbs-up-3qba9c5bae65s14d.gif[/img]

purplefaithful wrote:

Are they really going to risk another wasted year for Darrisaw, TJH, Jettas, Gink, Greenard et al? Were they supposed to ignore Murray shaking loose? Wanting to resurrect here? At $1.5m? With no long-term commitment to kick the tires? 

⬆️ This. All day this.