QB option nobody is talking about...

For me, the elephant in the room is what does KOC think about JJM starting out of the gate? Whats his ceiling? Can he play 16 games?

Last year I assumed he was 100% behind the kid starting....Now I'm not convinced that wAs the case.

We "MAY" find the answer in his coach speak after they sign a QB2 or if its a big asz trade of some kind lol!

I think it’s got to be something high like 85% JJM is starting week 1. 5% chance they do a blockbuster trade. 10% chance they attempt to turn another teams trash into a starting QB.

I just don’t think it really makes that much sense to waste JJM’s development to try and glean a SB out of Kirk Cousins or Carr. I think they’d be a safety net if it just isn’t working.
I don’t think a blockbuster QB will be available and while Stroud might appear to be weak at this point, teams almost never let pretty good QBs go. They almost always commit to them and waste another 5 years in the process.

Like what would be the reasons to not start a healthy JJM? You liked him up until he got to start. He hasn’t really gotten more than those first handful of starts where everyone sucks. You have to assume he’s working his ass off to fix those mechanics, because that’s who he is.

medaille wrote:
I think it’s got to be something high like 85% JJM is starting week 1.  5% chance they do a blockbuster trade.  10% chance they attempt to turn another teams trash into a starting QB.

I just don’t think it really makes that much sense to waste JJM’s development to try and glean a SB out of Kirk Cousins or Carr.  I think they’d be a safety net if it just isn’t working.
I don’t think a blockbuster QB will be available and while Stroud might appear to be weak at this point, teams almost never let pretty good QBs go.  They almost always commit to them and waste another 5 years in the process.

Like what would be the reasons to not start a healthy JJM?  You liked him up until he got to start.  He hasn’t really gotten more than those first handful of starts where everyone sucks.  You have to assume he’s working his ass off to fix those mechanics, because that’s who he is.

Only one: he's not ready yet. I believe he has a future; I don't think he's a bust. But look, he's still REALLY young, and you see that youth in his body language. Bo Nix was 24 and 195 days when he started his first game. JJ won't turn 24 and 195 days until August 2027. I give him every opportunity to show growth and maturity and win the starting job. But if I'm KOC, I know more of the same from young JJ could mean his teammates lose patience and I lose my job, so I'm probably going to make absolutely certain that the QB I bring in to compete with him is fully capable of running this offense and winning games.

Gotta give JJM some competition, but I'd give Wentz a full offseason, & take a run at Davis Mills personally.

One of those three needs to step up

MaroonBells wrote:

Man I couldn't disagree more. This is not a rebuilding team and there's too much at stake. You have one of the best defenses in the NFL. You have one of the best WR rooms in the NFL. You have one of the best offensive lines in the NFL (when healthy). And you're OK wasting another year of Justin Jefferson and Brian Flores for some silly "stick to the plan" nonsense? We should all be grateful that Justin Jefferson is a good dude. But how long do we try his patience? 

There should be no doubt in anyone's mind that the Vikings, who missed the playoffs by a half game, would've coasted into the playoffs with just average QB play. Andy Freaking Dalton would've taken this team to the playoffs. Sure, stick to the plan; keep developing JJ. But they have to have a much better failsafe this year.

If the goal is to simply make the playoffs then yes we can likely limp in on a retread,  but if the goal is a superbowl,  then build a team around a young guy that gives us that chance for more than a year,  and the financial means to improve the team around him.  I dont buy rogers or Cousins wanting to end their career playing coach,  but JJ isn't going to get better at this point on the pine.

I really don’t know what KOC will do. But we need a better QB room than we had last year.
I also got the impression that the receivers wasn’t real thrilled with some of JJM throws last year.

MaroonBells wrote:

Only one: he's not ready yet. I believe he has a future; I don't think he's a bust. But look, he's still REALLY young, and you see that youth in his body language. Bo Nix was 24 and 195 days when he started his first game. JJ won't turn 24 and 195 days until August 2027. I give him every opportunity to show growth and maturity and win the starting job. But if I'm KOC, I know more of the same from young JJ could mean his teammates lose patience and I lose my job, so I'm probably going to make absolutely certain that the QB I bring in to compete with him is fully capable of running this offense and winning games.

While I don't disagree that he wasn't ready year one, almost none of them are.  That's just part of the growing pains you have as you develop a rookie QB.  I don't think there's any real evidence that he's behind schedule for becoming a high quality starter.

I totally agree that the team mates could lose patience and KOC could lose his job if the offense doesn't work.  I just don't think that risk is limited to JJM starting.  You bring in a mid ass QB and get mid ass results probably also gets you fired.

medaille wrote:

While I don't disagree that he wasn't ready year one, almost none of them are.  That's just part of the growing pains you have as you develop a rookie QB.  I don't think there's any real evidence that he's behind schedule for becoming a high quality starter.

I totally agree that the team mates could lose patience and KOC could lose his job if the offense doesn't work.  I just don't think that risk is limited to JJM starting.  You bring in a mid ass QB and get mid ass results probably also gets you fired.

I'm not sure of the counterpoint here and in some posts I've read from some others. What point are you arguing? That the Vikings should not bring in a QB at all? Just give the job to JJ and hope for the best? Or bring in a guy but make sure he's not so good he beats out JJ, but also not so "mid ass" he doesn't make a difference?

MaroonBells wrote:

I'm not sure of the counterpoint here and in some posts I've read from some others. What point are you arguing? That the Vikings should not bring in a QB at all? Just give the job to JJ and hope for the best? Or bring in a guy but make sure he's not so good he beats out JJ, but also not so "mid ass" he doesn't make a difference?

Main Point:
My point is that people shouldn’t overreact to JJM being bad last year and Darnold winning a SB and latch onto the idea that a failed QB reclamation project is the only hope for saving KOC’s career here, because bringing in Kyler Murray isn’t saving KOC’s career.

Bonus Thoughts:
What I’m most against is bringing in a guy, like Cousins, who’s probably the definition of upperMid QB that probably caps your season potential at one playoff win unless everything is perfect, and giving him the starting role out the gate.  Like if he needs to go to a place where he’s the unquestionable starter, choose a different option.

Whatever option we choose is probably not going to be great.  When you don’t have a QB you trust, your options aren’t great, until you find that guy.  I think you have to make your decision of who to be QB, based on long term likelihood of becoming a SB winning QB balanced with the guy that gives you the best shot of winning a SB this year, and in general I trust that the guy with only 10 starts under his belt has a higher probability of taking us to a SB in the next couple years than the guy who has failed to take any team to the SB in his 10+ year long career.  Bring in the best QB you can get your hands on, just don’t let them dictate what the plans are out of fear.

What would my ideal but realistic plan be?  Probably, something like bringing in Cousins or Carr or Willis as a backup who can compete.  Let them have a camp competition.  If the veteran looks dramatically better, roll with them.  If they look slightly better than or even with JJM, roll with JJM for at least the first 6-8 games and then reanalyze the situation after seeing what he looks like.  I’m not really supportive of sending dramatic draft capital for a non-elite option.

medaille wrote:

Main Point:
My point is that people shouldn’t overreact to JJM being bad last year and Darnold winning a SB and latch onto the idea that a failed QB reclamation project is the only hope for saving KOC’s career here, because bringing in Kyler Murray isn’t saving KOC’s career.

Bonus Thoughts:
What I’m most against is bringing in a guy, like Cousins, who’s probably the definition of upperMid QB that probably caps your season potential at one playoff win unless everything is perfect, and giving him the starting role out the gate.  Like if he needs to go to a place where he’s the unquestionable starter, choose a different option.

Whatever option we choose is probably not going to be great.  When you don’t have a QB you trust, your options aren’t great, until you find that guy.  I think you have to make your decision of who to be QB, based on long term likelihood of becoming a SB winning QB balanced with the guy that gives you the best shot of winning a SB this year, and in general I trust that the guy with only 10 starts under his belt has a higher probability of taking us to a SB in the next couple years than the guy who has failed to take any team to the SB in his 10+ year long career.  Bring in the best QB you can get your hands on, just don’t let them dictate what the plans are out of fear.

What would my ideal but realistic plan be?  Probably, something like bringing in Cousins or Carr or Willis as a backup who can compete.  Let them have a camp competition.  If the veteran looks dramatically better, roll with them.  If they look slightly better than or even with JJM, roll with JJM for at least the first 6-8 games and then reanalyze the situation after seeing what he looks like.  I’m not really supportive of sending dramatic draft capital for a non-elite option.

Fair enough. I like the Cousins and Carr ideas. I could be wrong, but I just don't think Willis is an option. There's some buzz that he doesn't fit what we do, but for me I just don't see why he would agree to come compete with a QB in Minnesota when there are likely going to be a handful of teams who will offer him a starting job. 

Might there be a team who offers Cousins a starting job? I think it's less likely, but still possible. At the end of the day, it's not about trying to repeat the Darnold reclamation; it's about finding a guy who can run this offense the way it's meant to be run if JJ doesn't show significant improvement. A very real possibility.

I think we can all agree on a few things here;

- From a fan standpoint, we'd all love for the team to move forward with JJ McCarthy as the starter because we want to know what we have and there just isn't a big enough sample size to know for sure. We want to know for sure and he offers the most upside compared to any reclamation project that might become available. I'd rather roll with McCarthy, than say...give up a high draft pick for Mac Jones.

- KOC is officially on the hot seat and probably needs a playoff win to save his job beyond next season. The scapegoat in Kwesi is gone, ownership has relinquished control to OConnell, and now he's going to sink or swim. All indications are he wasn't happy with McCarthy's play or the fact that he had to eventually strip down his offense for McCarthy. I just don't think he is going to risk his job on a 22 year old kid who's play and injuries left a lot to be desired.

This is why I say, yes, we the fans want to see more of McCarthy, but there's just no way OConnell (now in control) stakes his job to him. The likely outcome is OConnell making a move for a veteran quarterback that's had prior success as a starter and can come in as a short term answer while McCarthy continues to marinade as the backup. Not what we want to see as fans, but that's the highly probable outcome.

medaille wrote:

Main Point:
My point is that people shouldn’t overreact to JJM being bad last year and Darnold winning a SB and latch onto the idea that a failed QB reclamation project is the only hope for saving KOC’s career here, because bringing in Kyler Murray isn’t saving KOC’s career.

Bonus Thoughts:
What I’m most against is bringing in a guy, like Cousins, who’s probably the definition of upperMid QB that probably caps your season potential at one playoff win unless everything is perfect, and giving him the starting role out the gate.  Like if he needs to go to a place where he’s the unquestionable starter, choose a different option.

Whatever option we choose is probably not going to be great.  When you don’t have a QB you trust, your options aren’t great, until you find that guy.  I think you have to make your decision of who to be QB, based on long term likelihood of becoming a SB winning QB balanced with the guy that gives you the best shot of winning a SB this year, and in general I trust that the guy with only 10 starts under his belt has a higher probability of taking us to a SB in the next couple years than the guy who has failed to take any team to the SB in his 10+ year long career.  Bring in the best QB you can get your hands on, just don’t let them dictate what the plans are out of fear.

What would my ideal but realistic plan be?  Probably, something like bringing in Cousins or Carr or Willis as a backup who can compete.  Let them have a camp competition.  If the veteran looks dramatically better, roll with them.  If they look slightly better than or even with JJM, roll with JJM for at least the first 6-8 games and then reanalyze the situation after seeing what he looks like.  I’m not really supportive of sending dramatic draft capital for a non-elite option.

can I add,  we need to change the O to offer more quick to intermediate options,  even the best OLines cant hold up consistently when the QB is forced to hold for a 4 count on nearly every pass play.  I really think our offense would explode if they just shortened up those routes a bit and allowed the QB quicker throws.  Want to know why IMO Maye looked as good as he did this year,  he had the lowest time in the league for holding the ball.  Our O needs a tweak that isnt going to come simply by changing the QB or OL alone.

supafreak84 wrote:
I think we can all agree on a few things here;

- From a fan standpoint, we'd all love for the team to move forward with JJ McCarthy as the starter because we want to know what we have and there just isn't a big enough sample size to know for sure. We want to know for sure and he offers the most upside compared to any reclamation project that might become available. I'd rather roll with McCarthy, than say...give up a high draft pick for Mac Jones.

- KOC is officially on the hot seat and probably needs a playoff win to save his job beyond next season. The scapegoat in Kwesi is gone, ownership has relinquished control to OConnell, and now he's going to sink or swim. All indications are he wasn't happy with McCarthy's play or the fact that he had to eventually strip down his offense for McCarthy. I just don't think he is going to risk his job on a 22 year old kid who's play and injuries left a lot to be desired.

This is why I say, yes, we the fans want to see more of McCarthy, but there's just no way OConnell (now in control) stakes his job to him. The likely outcome is OConnell making a move for a veteran quarterback that's had prior success as a starter and can come in as a short term answer while McCarthy continues to marinade as the backup. Not what we want to see as fans, but that's the highly probable outcome.

if that is the way it goes,  I am immediately off the KOC wagon.  His O isnt kick ass,  his biggest asset was supposed to be a QB guru,  but he gives up on JJM that quickly?  IMO JJM is only going into year 2 as he basically lost all his rookie season and a large part of last years offseason,  I am expecting a big jump from him,  but if KOC is already moving off him then maybe we need to look at improving both coach and player.

MaroonBells wrote:

I'm not sure of the counterpoint here and in some posts I've read from some others. What point are you arguing? That the Vikings should not bring in a QB at all? Just give the job to JJ and hope for the best? Or bring in a guy but make sure he's not so good he beats out JJ, but also not so "mid ass" he doesn't make a difference?

To be honest- Yes. And it's why I'm team Derek Carr.

The Vikings should try to upgrade off JJM if they're done with him but if they still believe, then let him play. I agree we need an improved failsafe plan over Wentz and Brosmer but that's the calibre of QB I'd be trying to find- Either the best QB, or the best failsafe QB. I'm not interested in a true open competition and I'm not interested in bringing in a mid-Vet to achieve mid-results while McCarthy "learns" on the bench. Him learning on the bench doesn't offer much value to me when the biggest question I have with him is injury concerns. He's not gonna alleviate those from the sidelines. JMO on a complicated situation. Anyone remember when we had "THREE GOOD QBS"?

I think Rogers and Love are examples of how learning on the bench 2-3 years is just fine...

Its too late for that with JJM...But I agree with Pattersaur that someone like a Carr, Cousins is the caliber of back-up we want.

This is going to be a fascinating off-season with GM and QB discussion. Id sure trade the intrigue for smooth sailing one of these years.

JimmyinSD wrote:

if that is the way it goes,  I am immediately off the KOC wagon.  His O isnt kick ass,  his biggest asset was supposed to be a QB guru,  but he gives up on JJM that quickly?  IMO JJM is only going into year 2 as he basically lost all his rookie season and a large part of last years offseason,  I am expecting a big jump from him,  but if KOC is already moving off him then maybe we need to look at improving both coach and player.

I'm already off the KOC bandwagon. A lot of falsehoods about OConnell were revealed last season (QB whisperer) and I don't believe his style of offense is condusive to winning in the postseason. It's that simple. I'd shed no tears to see him sent packing. Maybe this time Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dumb will be a little wiser when it comes to hiring their next GM and coach and lean heavily on the advise of well respected football people instead of trying to be "cutting edge" dopes.

supafreak84 wrote:
I think we can all agree on a few things here;

- From a fan standpoint, we'd all love for the team to move forward with JJ McCarthy as the starter because we want to know what we have and there just isn't a big enough sample size to know for sure. We want to know for sure and he offers the most upside compared to any reclamation project that might become available. I'd rather roll with McCarthy, than say...give up a high draft pick for Mac Jones.

- KOC is officially on the hot seat and probably needs a playoff win to save his job beyond next season. The scapegoat in Kwesi is gone, ownership has relinquished control to OConnell, and now he's going to sink or swim. All indications are he wasn't happy with McCarthy's play or the fact that he had to eventually strip down his offense for McCarthy. I just don't think he is going to risk his job on a 22 year old kid who's play and injuries left a lot to be desired.

This is why I say, yes, we the fans want to see more of McCarthy, but there's just no way OConnell (now in control) stakes his job to him. The likely outcome is OConnell making a move for a veteran quarterback that's had prior success as a starter and can come in as a short term answer while McCarthy continues to marinade as the backup. Not what we want to see as fans, but that's the highly probable outcome.

I think this is exactly right. I don't agree that KOC needs a playoff win to save his job, but if we give the job to JJ (or anyone, really) and we start 4-8, like we did last year, he may not get to finish the season.

supafreak84 wrote:

I'm already off the KOC bandwagon. A lot of falsehoods about OConnell were revealed last season (QB whisperer) and I don't believe his style of offense is condusive to winning in the postseason. It's that simple. I'd shed no tears to see him sent packing. Maybe this time Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dumb will be a little wiser when it comes to hiring their next GM and coach and lean heavily on the advise of well respected football people instead of trying to be "cutting edge" dopes.

So KOC isn't a "QB Whisperer" because JJ McCarthy didn't immediately light up the league coming off missing most of his rookie season with injury and months without any on-field reps?  He started playing well the more reps he got in the final 4-5 games of the season.

KOC earned that nickname because Cousins had his best statistical year and most wins of his career with KOC.  Same for Darnold. Even Nick Mullens threw for career high yardage and TDs in a handful of starts after Cousins went down.

Most QBs he's coached in MN have had more on-field success than under any prior coach or team.  Darnold matched his win total under KOC in Seattle but his statistical production went down quite a bit. 

THAT is why he's been labeled a QB Whisperer.  If JJ McCarthy sucks next year, then maybe he loses a little shine, but his offense is proven to put up yards and points when his QB has full command of the offense.

I'm sick of fans trashing JJ McCarthy, KOC, the Wilfs, and everything Vikings.  We finally get rid of the one big problem with this team (Kwesi) and now the hate is getting directed in some silly places.

MAD GAINZ wrote:

So KOC isn't a "QB Whisperer" because JJ McCarthy didn't immediately light up the league coming off missing most of his rookie season with injury and months without any on-field reps?  He started playing well the more reps he got in the final 4-5 games of the season.

KOC earned that nickname because Cousins had his best statistical year and most wins of his career with KOC.  Same for Darnold. Even Nick Mullens threw for career high yardage and TDs in a handful of starts after Cousins went down.

Most QBs he's coached in MN have had more on-field success than under any prior coach or team.  Darnold matched his win total under KOC in Seattle but his statistical production went down quite a bit. 

THAT is why he's been labeled a QB Whisperer.  If JJ McCarthy sucks next year, then maybe he loses a little shine, but his offense is proven to put up yards and points when his QB has full command of the offense.

I'm sick of fans trashing JJ McCarthy, KOC, the Wilfs, and everything Vikings.  We finally get rid of the one big problem with this team (Kwesi) and now the hate is getting directed in some silly places.

No, he's not a quarterback whisperer because he's a one trick pony who won't adjust his scheme to help his quarterback out and he's allergic to running the football. You can't win in the playoffs, as proven by every team that went deep, without some semblance of an effective run game. Let's also not obsolve him from a lot of these quarterback gaffes since he's been here. Josh Dobbs was great for one game of sandlot football, and then got worse the deeper he got into the KOC offense. Darnold, much like Mac Jones...developed under Kyle Shanahan and sitting behind Brock Purdy. That's been well documented. Sam Howell was a disaster, and there's no way KOC wasn't heavily involved in that decision to bring him over. Was it KOC who decided to go with McCarthy this year only to find out he wasn't ready and not capable of doing what was asked within the offense? There was minimal to no development of McCarthy this year. RIP to Carson Wentz after operating the KOC chuck and duck offense behind a decimated offensive line. Brosmer...need I say more? 

There's just a ton of evidence over the course of time that debunks the entire KOC "QB whisperer" BS. He's never developed a quarterback (ever) and any success he's had has been with multi year veterans that can run his system.

supafreak84 wrote:

No, he's not a quarterback whisperer because he's a one trick pony who won't adjust his scheme to help his quarterback out and he's allergic to running the football. You can't win in the playoffs, as proven by every team that went deep, without some semblance of an effective run game. Let's also not obsolve him from a lot of these quarterback gaffes since he's been here. Josh Dobbs was great for one game of sandlot football, and then got worse the deeper he got into the KOC offense. Darnold, much like Mac Jones...developed under Kyle Shanahan and sitting behind Brock Purdy. That's been well documented. Sam Howell was a disaster, and there's no way KOC wasn't heavily involved in that decision to bring him over. Was it KOC who decided to go with McCarthy this year only to find out he wasn't ready and not capable of doing what was asked within the offense? There was minimal to no development of McCarthy this year. RIP to Carson Wentz after operating the KOC chuck and duck offense behind a decimated offensive line. Brosmer...need I say more? 

There's just a ton of evidence over the course of time that debunks the entire KOC "QB whisperer" BS. He's never developed a quarterback (ever) and any success he's had has been with multi year veterans that can run his system.

Look, there is no changing your mind and I'm not trying to. But out of all the issues out in Eagan, I dont put KOC in tier1 to fix. 

Thats not saying he doesnt have areas to improve (he does) but the guys play hard for him and they damn near made the playoffs with no QB play. At 4/8 they could have all packed it in and they didnt. Thats a win btw, not a bad thing and it sets the foundation for a 26 spring back. 

Give KOC a decent QB? And they will be right back to competing for the North and (hopefully) winning some post season games in the near future. My hope that guy is McCarthy.