Telling stat

Could he be starting to feel some heat and decided to dumb down his offense? Just wondering.

MaroonBells wrote:
Dustin Baker@DustBaker

The Vikings have rushed the ball 258 times in 13 games, the fewest in franchise history at this point in a given season. When they do run it, they're averaging 4.6 yards per attempt, which ranks 11th-best in franchise history.

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I think KOC is a good coach, one of the best in the NFL. But that doesn't mean he doesn't have weaknesses and things to work on. I few weeks ago, a few of us agreed that he might be better off shelving JJ's mechanics issues until the offseason and just let 9 go play instinctive football, for better or worse. It sounds like that's exactly what he's decided to do going forward. 

A few weeks ago many of us agreed that KOC should ditch the long game and some of the complexities of his offense in favor of a simpler game, one better-catered to a younger QB. Sounds like that's exactly what he's decided to do. Running the ball more is a big part of that "dumbing down." 

If it works on Sunday, the question on everyone's mind will be why did it take until week 14 to figure that out?

The reigning COTY's warts came out this year. The guy is used to excelling at 3d chess and his qb was barely ready for checkers. That was a big miss. 

I dont think his job is in jeopardy, but he has stuff to work on. 

If JJ looks better this week? We'll never know if its because of more seasoning, a week off, simplified offense or all of the above.

purplefaithful wrote:

The reigning COTY's warts came out this year. The guy is used to excelling at 3d chess and his qb was barely ready for checkers. That was a big miss. 

I dont think his job is in jeopardy, but he has stuff to work on. 

If JJ looks better this week? We'll never know if its because of more seasoning, a week off, simplified offense or all of the above.

Well, seeing Max struggle hopefully opened his eyes that it wasn't just a JJ issue.  It was an issue with his offense.  Hell, Cousins and Darnold struggled with his deep drops in games where the offensive line wasn't able to hold up to the pressure.  

To be an elite offense, it helps to have a genius OC.  But it doesn't take a genius to see that the young guys would function a bit better with something simpler.

I think part of it is just the sheer lack of number of plays, but going into the season/Week3, you have to be imagining that with a JJM/Wentz offense you probably want to lean on the run to take some of the burden off the QB. Kind of a basic normal strategy everyone uses when they have lesser functioning QBs, either due to youth or quality.

This is the kind of becoming a pattern, where in the offseason, we make attempts "to get better at running the ball" and then once it comes time to call plays, either he or the QB chooses not to run the ball.

I'm not saying he can't change, but at this point in time, he hasn't really shown the will to run the ball. I think it would be a great idea for him to bring in an OC that can help diversify the scheme and has play calling history in their background.

medaille wrote:
I think part of it is just the sheer lack of number of plays, but going into the season/Week3, you have to be imagining that with a JJM/Wentz offense you probably want to lean on the run to take some of the burden off the QB.  Kind of a basic normal strategy everyone uses when they have lesser functioning QBs, either due to youth or quality.

This is the kind of becoming a pattern, where in the offseason, we make attempts "to get better at running the ball" and then once it comes time to call plays, either he or the QB chooses not to run the ball.

I'm not saying he can't change, but at this point in time, he hasn't really shown the will to run the ball.  I think it would be a great idea for him to bring in an OC that can help diversify the scheme and has play calling history in their background.

Well, we have gotten better at running the ball.  Our ypc have been better.  But yeah, actually sticking with it, that is still an issue.

KOC has given the illusion that he wants to run the ball more for a couple years now from signing Oliver, to remaking the offensive line, and it's just not who he is in his DNA. Since he's been here the Vikings rank 31st rushing attempts..31st! In the first 23 plays of the game he called for Brosmer on the road in Seattle, 17 called passes. You can't win in the postseason unless you can effectively run the football and I just don't know if this guy is ever going to get the memo and theres been a lot of questionable other things around OConnell from his decision to hire Ed Donnatell, to his misevaluations at the backup quarterback position, Sam Howell, how involved was he in the McCarthy pick, etc. Four years in, and I honestly think the guy is a fraud and I'm off the KOC train. We'll see if he actually does anything these last five games to get me back on board, but won't hold my breathe.

purplefaithful wrote:

The reigning COTY's warts came out this year. The guy is used to excelling at 3d chess and his qb was barely ready for checkers. That was a big miss. 

I dont think his job is in jeopardy, but he has stuff to work on. 

If JJ looks better this week? We'll never know if its because of more seasoning, a week off, simplified offense or all of the above.

No, of course his job isn't in jeopardy, but his reputation has certainly taken a hit this year due to all the misjudgments. I think they started with Howell and continued with the failure to quickly recognize that his young QBs might be better off with a Cliff Notes version of his War and Peace offense. 

Mike Zimmer was a disaster near the end, but one of the things he did well IMO was adjust to the reality of the game. His game-planning seemed to be weak, but if an offense was moving the ball at will early on, you just knew Mike would find a way to shut it down later. There's a quote from Aaron Rodgers that sticks with me: "What happened after the 1st quarter?" "Mike Zimmer happened." 

KOC seems to be the opposite: the game plans are good, but he doesn't seem to adjust well to the reality of what's happening on the field.

You want to know how we fix this mess of an offense? The answer is you fire O'Connell at seasons end and hire Bill's offensive coordinator Joe Brady as head coach;

- The guy calls his own plays

- The Bills have the second overall ranked offense in the league and the number one ranked rushing offense in the league with the most rushing attempts. Tenth ranked passing offense, so it's a balanced attack with 13 different Bill's having scored touchdowns on offense. He utilizes the tight ends well and James Cook has become a star under Brady.

- He was Jeffersons receivers coach and the passing game coordinator when he was at LSU. Brady loves him some Jefferson and if you want to fix the Jefferson issue going forward, Brady is the guy.

- His last name is Brady. How could you go wrong?

medaille wrote:
I think part of it is just the sheer lack of number of plays, but going into the season/Week3, you have to be imagining that with a JJM/Wentz offense you probably want to lean on the run to take some of the burden off the QB.  Kind of a basic normal strategy everyone uses when they have lesser functioning QBs, either due to youth or quality.

This is the kind of becoming a pattern, where in the offseason, we make attempts "to get better at running the ball" and then once it comes time to call plays, either he or the QB chooses not to run the ball.

I'm not saying he can't change, but at this point in time, he hasn't really shown the will to run the ball.  I think it would be a great idea for him to bring in an OC that can help diversify the scheme and has play calling history in their background.

this ↑

I think bringing in an experienced OC that is very run oriented is the only thing that will save KOC from himself.

It's weird how the ego of head coaches is always their downfall.

Belicheat is a meat bag, but the dude would adjust and scheme in anyway he could if it gave him a chance to win.

KOC can adjust learn and grow thru this.

MaroonBells wrote:

No, of course his job isn't in jeopardy, but his reputation has certainly taken a hit this year due to all the misjudgments. I think they started with Howell and continued with the failure to quickly recognize that his young QBs might be better off with a Cliff Notes version of his War and Peace offense. 

Mike Zimmer was a disaster near the end, but one of the things he did well IMO was adjust to the reality of the game. His game-planning seemed to be weak, but if an offense was moving the ball at will early on, you just knew Mike would find a way to shut it down later. There's a quote from Aaron Rodgers that sticks with me: "What happened after the 1st quarter?" "Mike Zimmer happened." 

KOC seems to be the opposite: the game plans are good, but he doesn't seem to adjust well to the reality of what's happening on the field.

Yeah, loved those Zimmer days.

Anyone remember that he had BRob on the field basically calling the pressures?  He would spend the 1st couple of drives learning their protections and then it was lights out.  Gink sort of reminds me of that type of intelligent defender.

KOC kinda reminds me of a Ponder type.  Very smart, but just freezes when fan starts throwing crap back.

NorseFeathers wrote:

this ↑

I think bringing in an experienced OC that is very run oriented is the only thing that will save KOC from himself.

And that's never something KOC would do unless it's forced upon him. No way he would bring in his possible replacement on staff (even in a temporary role) should things go badly in 2026 and someone who could point the finger back at KOC and say, "not me" when the Wilfs come looking for answers. KOC is the final voice on offense and is going to run it how he wants it and that's never going to change. Phillips is a no voiced patsy. That's the kind of guy KOC wants as an underling.

Mattyman wrote:
It's weird how the ego of head coaches is always their downfall.

Belicheat is a meat bag, but the dude would adjust and scheme in anyway he could if it gave him a chance to win.

KOC  can adjust learn and grow thru this.

Can he?

supafreak84 wrote:

 Phillips is a no voiced patsy. That's the kind of guy KOC wants as an underling.

He learned it from McVay and how he uses Mike LaFleur...

purplefaithful wrote:

He learned it from McVay and how he uses Mike LaFleur...

He probably learned it from McVay himself when OConnell was the no voiced patsy as "offensive coordinator" in an offense ran and called by McVay. OConnell NEVER called plays his entire coaching career before he landed in Minnesota. I can not stand when coordinators get lumped into the success of the head coach who runs the gameplan and called the plays on their side of the ball. The Brad Childress's of the world, the Eric Bienemy's of the world, the Ed Donnatell's of the world. I'll never understand why you would hire someone to be you're head coach when it's clear as day they had little to do with the success the head coach was responsible for. Now we have this pass happy, allergic to the run, long route developing, can't sustain drives bullshit that looks absolutely abysmal. It's really taken him 13 weeks of dogshit football for him to finally take some accountability and realize that he probably needs to dial things back in hoping to get any semblance of a competent offense going with a young quarterback? Absolutely incredible. I'll tell you, I 1,000% agree with Judd in that I'd never again trust OConnell in the development of a young quarterback, ever. Jaren Hall-awful, Sam Howell-awful, JJ McCarthy-awful, Max Brosmer-awful. The shine is off, way off, on the idea of OConnell being an offensive genius and "quarterback whisperer." RIP to any young quarterback who has to listen to OConnell's "whispers."

greediron wrote:

Yeah, loved those Zimmer days.

Anyone remember that he had BRob on the field basically calling the pressures?  He would spend the 1st couple of drives learning their protections and then it was lights out.  Gink sort of reminds me of that type of intelligent defender.

KOC kinda reminds me of a Ponder type.  Very smart, but just freezes when fan starts throwing crap back.

I look back at all those Zimmer years and I dont have the fondness others seem to have. 

Not for him or the team accomplishments tbh. 

I remember winning the North in Lamblow in 2015 and of course the horseshoe season in 2017. 

Once Spielman traded for Kirko, the fun was over (least for me).

purplefaithful wrote:

I look back at all those Zimmer years and I dont have the fondness others seem to have. 

Not for him or the team accomplishments tbh. 

I remember winning the North in Lamblow in 2015 and of course the horseshoe season in 2017. 

Once Spielman traded for Kirko, the fun was over (least for me).

I don't have a fondness for the Zimmer years. At the end of his run, I wanted him gone. Same with Spielman. You're not speaking? Are you fucking kidding me? Are you professionals or middle school crushes? 

But, just like current leadership, both of them did SOME things well and some things not so well. I think to accurately evaluate someone--really, anyone in any job--you have to be truthful about both their assets and their liabilities.

A couple things I feel pretty confident about if the team would have retained Spielman;

- Kyle Hamilton is a Viking right now

- Jim Harbaugh is our head coach right now

How different does this team look just by those two moves?

supafreak84 wrote:
A couple things I feel pretty confident about if the team would have retained Spielman;

- Kyle Hamilton is a Viking right now

- Jim Harbaugh is our head coach right now

How different does this team look just by those two moves?

- A broken down Kirk is still our QB on a deal that exceeded what he got from Atlanta

- Mannion is still QB2

Not that different

pattersaur wrote:

- A broken down Kirk is still our QB on a deal that exceeded what he got from Atlanta

- Mannion is still QB2

Not that different

Lol well, maybe Mannion is still here but fairly sure we would have moved off Cousins after the achillies