Murray by the numbers

[supafreak84]

Not sure if he's digging his own grave or not, I still have a lot of faith in KOC, but I won't dismiss what you say here either. I guess we'll see. Fans expectations should begin at 10 wins as a floor, that goes without saying. A few fans seem all in already, but lets not confuse an exciting player with a player that's going to help produce wins. Big difference. I'm a Viking's fan, so that's my hope. But I'll have to see it before I take more than a cursory polite sip of the Purple Kool Aid.

My faith in OConnell went totally out the window last year when every narrative and media tag-line played out as adamantly false. He's no more a "whisperer" than Brad Chidresses offense was "kick ass" and whether he retains his job beyond next season or not, should never again be entrusted with the development of another young quarterback in Minnesota. McCarthy was his guy, he had a very large part in him being drafted, touted him up as a franchise guy, than throws in the towel on him 10 games into his career in an attempt to get a playoff win and save his job. I really don't give a shit about OConnell and if the choice was between using next season to see if McCarthy is the guy, or winning enough games for OConnell to save his job, the choice should be McCarthy every time and OConnell should be made to either sink or swim based on McCarthy's development and how he plays. But nope, we have an incompetent ownership group who once again bows down at the thrown and gives a guy who's never won jack shit a reprieve and even more power to do what he wants.

[MaroonBells]

I was told to throw out kyler's stats

That was a smart guy who told you that. You should listen to him more. Oh sure, if you want an idea of how Murray performed wandering alone in the desert, have at it. But if you want an idea of how he’ll perform in the land of milk and the Mighty Minnesota Fightin’ Vikings, they’re as useless as bacon at a bar mitzvah...or the numbers Ginger Jesus put up pre-purple.

[purplefaithful]

This^
Its the only thing I've ever said about this with the strongest intent. Its never happened before and it sure as hell isn't going to happen now. Why some fans think this isn't the case is honestly astounding to me. Its the the most glaring lack-of-faith move that KOC could make and he's making it. Even if Murray shits the bed in Minnesota, they are DONE with McCarthy. So it is what it is and KOC needs to keep his yapper shut about organizations failing QBs because in hindsight it now  sounds naive and self-serving. The moral: not every QB can be coached up.
I believe in KOC + KOC is in on Kyler Murray = a big year for Minnesota. Simple math. Anything else and maybe another baby, a very tall one, is going to go out with the bathwater as well. I sincerely hope that isn't the case and I'd rather just be very wrong about JJM than being wrong about KOC.

I agree the Vikings for 26 with Murray is exciting. Maybe the most exciting since signing Bert, time will tell.

I acknowledge it would be a path with lots of curves, but I dont believe JJM days here are done. In fact, I'm surprised we're on such opposite ends of whether that means the end of JJM in MN or not? 

AND are the Vikings justified in their decision to sign the former #1 pick? 

1). I think the chances of JJM getting opportunities for meaningful play in real games with the 1's in 26 are good (real good). What he does with those opportunities is up to him. 

2). Regardless of what I gleam from the media, I think the chances of Murray being here after 26 are less than 50/50. 

3). I think the Vikings are legitimately looking for proof of growth and reason for hope from JJM. But I dont blame them for not handing him the reigns without showing them he can handle his biz on the field.  

4). Murray was head and shoulders above the other choices at QB to join the franchise. $$ wise and ceiling of play wise. 

It would have been criminal if the Vikings didn't sign him when given the opportunity. Bottom line for me is that regardless of how he plays, Murray is going to be a FA and he'll have opportunities elsewhere, multi-year opportunities. 

This isnt directed at you, but at this visceral (hard for me to understand) reaction some Viking fans have being enraged at the org taking cover after JJM stunk up the joint in 25. 

Are they really going to risk another wasted year for Darrisaw, TJH, Jettas, Gink, Greenard et al? Were they supposed to ignore Murray shaking loose? Wanting to resurrect here? At $1.5m? With no long-term commitment to kick the tires? 

Should they have spent more for Jimmy G? G. Smith? Wentz? Flacco and have a lesser competition? 

I am now officially burned out on this lol! I'm ready for the draft.

[medaille]

...  You don't bench your top 10 QB pick after 10 starts and then turn back to him.

This^

Its the only thing I've ever said about this with the strongest intent. Its never happened before and it sure as hell isn't going to happen now. Why some fans think this isn't the case is honestly astounding to me. Its the the most glaring lack-of-faith move that KOC could make and he's making it. Even if Murray shits the bed in Minnesota, they are DONE with McCarthy. So it is what it is and KOC needs to keep his yapper shut about organizations failing QBs because in hindsight it now  sounds naive and self-serving. The moral: not every QB can be coached up.

I believe in KOC + KOC is in on Kyler Murray = a big year for Minnesota. Simple math. Anything else and maybe another baby, a very tall one, is going to go out with the bathwater as well. I sincerely hope that isn't the case and I'd rather just be very wrong about JJM than being wrong about KOC.

Like what are some similar situations that have happened in the past, where a team with a young inexperienced QB had the opportunity to get a starting caliber QB for free?

I can’t think of one, I don’t think history is of much use, because this isn’t a normal situation.  Literally every team should have been trying to get Kyler Murray for $1.3M(?).  Because the Vikings won this lottery, doesn’t mean that JJM is shit, and even if he had a rough half a season of play, which almost all first time QBs do, it doesn’t mean that the Vikings are done with him.

And lets be honest.  The Cardinals let Murray go for a reason.  What are the historical precedences where a team gets rid of their starting caliber QB and eats a ton of cap to do so?  For the most part, those are guys that suck and are no longer worth having on the team, because teams don’t usually have backup plans and cutting your starting QB to get back on the “trying to find a QB” train is incredibly painful.  The only one that was really worth it was the Packers moving from Rodgers to Love and like how worth it was it for them?  If we're using historical precedence for one, are we using it for both QBs?

Like if you bring your wife’s cooking to work for lunch, and then the company surprises you by giving you a free restaurant lunch.  It doesn’t mean your wife’s cooking sucks.  Maybe it does, but maybe free restaurant lunch is also nice.

[comet52]

the choice should be McCarthy every time and OConnell should be made to either sink or swim based on McCarthy's development and how he plays. But nope, we have an incompetent ownership group who once again bows down at the thrown and gives a guy who's never won jack shit a reprieve and even more power to do what he wants.

The irony is crazy rich here given how much you hated KAM, because KOC maneuvering him out of the way pretty much was the move needed to ditch JJM.  I believe KAM's long term plan at QB meant he would have insisted on what you want above - KOC sinks or swims with JMM.  And I am convinced that the weirdly timed firing was all about that power struggle and KOC (possibly with an assist from Flores) won it with the win-now Wilfs.  The awkwardness Mark Wilf displayed in that post-firing presser said it all. 

If the guy you hated was still here I think JJM would still be QB1 whether KOC liked it or not because KAM would not have gone after Kyler.  His future was tied to JJM, but somehow KOC the politician was able to smooth-talk his bosses into a different reality.  JJM griddying it in Dallas and saying coach said don't and that inspired him to do it... that's kinda like running to the sidelines and screaming, "Nine!!" at KOC while holding up two middle fingers.  That and a whole bunch of other stuff seems to have soured KOC on the kid.  So here we are in that different reality, with a lot of fans bewildered at how it went down.  The very dysfunctional Vikings org under the Wilfs marches on.

[supafreak84]

The irony is crazy rich here given how much you hated KAM, because KOC maneuvering him out of the way pretty much was the move needed to ditch JJM.  I believe KAM's long term plan at QB meant he would have insisted on what you want above - KOC sinks or swims with JMM.  And I am convinced that the weirdly timed firing was all about that power struggle and KOC (possibly with an assist from Flores) won it with the win-now Wilfs.  The awkwardness Mark Wilf displayed in that post-firing presser said it all. 

If the guy you hated was still here I think JJM would still be QB1 whether KOC liked it or not because KAM would not have gone after Kyler.  His future was tied to JJM, but somehow KOC the politician was able to smooth-talk his bosses into a different reality.  JJM griddying it in Dallas and saying coach said don't and that inspired him to do it... that's kinda like running to the sidelines and screaming, "Nine!!" at KOC while holding up two middle fingers.  That and a whole bunch of other stuff seems to have soured KOC on the kid.  So here we are in that different reality, with a lot of fans bewildered at how it went down.  The very dysfunctional Vikings org under the Wilfs marches on.

But you are essentially washing OConnell of any blame in using a top 10 pick to draft McCarthy or his development (or lack there of) as a quarterback. To think OConnell wasn't hugely involved in the drafting of McCarthy would be extremely short sighted. Yes, KAM was a problem and I said it from day one, but to me, OConnell showed his true colors this last season and now I think only half the problem has been eliminated. I don't believe him to be the offensive savant he is portrayed to be and after his whole "Organizations fail young quarterbacks before young quarterbacks fail organizations" shtick that's been echoed ad nauseum, then he goes out and does that EXACT thing to McCarthy in an effort to save his own ass! Cant make this stuff up.You are absolutely right though in that the eternal dysfunction of this franchise under Wilf ownership marches on.

[MaroonBells]

The irony is crazy rich here given how much you hated KAM, because KOC maneuvering him out of the way pretty much was the move needed to ditch JJM.  I believe KAM's long term plan at QB meant he would have insisted on what you want above - KOC sinks or swims with JMM.  And I am convinced that the weirdly timed firing was all about that power struggle and KOC (possibly with an assist from Flores) won it with the win-now Wilfs.  The awkwardness Mark Wilf displayed in that post-firing presser said it all. 

If the guy you hated was still here I think JJM would still be QB1 whether KOC liked it or not because KAM would not have gone after Kyler.  His future was tied to JJM, but somehow KOC the politician was able to smooth-talk his bosses into a different reality.  JJM griddying it in Dallas and saying coach said don't and that inspired him to do it... that's kinda like running to the sidelines and screaming, "Nine!!" at KOC while holding up two middle fingers.  That and a whole bunch of other stuff seems to have soured KOC on the kid.  So here we are in that different reality, with a lot of fans bewildered at how it went down.  The very dysfunctional Vikings org under the Wilfs marches on.

I don't necessarily agree with everything here, but I do think there may be some truth in your interpretation of how things went down. I think KOC and the Vikings were onto Kyler the minute he was benched in Az. At that point, they likely knew the Cards were tanking and would very likely have to release Murray, putting him squarely in KOC's' crosshairs. The power struggle that you refer to may have occurred at this time.

[StickierBuns]

Like what are some similar situations that have happened in the past, where a team with a young inexperienced QB had the opportunity to get a starting caliber QB for free?

I can’t think of one, I don’t think history is of much use, because this isn’t a normal situation.  Literally every team should have been trying to get Kyler Murray for $1.3M(?).  Because the Vikings won this lottery, doesn’t mean that JJM is shit, and even if he had a rough half a season of play, which almost all first time QBs do, it doesn’t mean that the Vikings are done with him.

And lets be honest.  The Cardinals let Murray go for a reason.  What are the historical precedences where a team gets rid of their starting caliber QB and eats a ton of cap to do so?  For the most part, those are guys that suck and are no longer worth having on the team, because teams don’t usually have backup plans and cutting your starting QB to get back on the “trying to find a QB” train is incredibly painful.  The only one that was really worth it was the Packers moving from Rodgers to Love and like how worth it was it for them?  If we're using historical precedence for one, are we using it for both QBs?

Like if you bring your wife’s cooking to work for lunch, and then the company surprises you by giving you a free restaurant lunch.  It doesn’t mean your wife’s cooking sucks.  Maybe it does, but maybe free restaurant lunch is also nice.

None of this matters. Not one word if you believe in your 23 year old QB or decide you want to continue to develop him. KOC has decided not to already, after spouting things he thinks sound good but doesn't have the balls to follow through with on how organizations fail QBs. He's a hypocrite. Nothing new there because society is full of them. When you don't give your drafted young QB reps, which is what he needs desperately, what changes next year? He's in stasis, frozen in time. Not sure how many times it needs to be said. I don't know what some of you are smoking, but the JJM era as the QBOTF is over. But it seems very important for a few on the board to imagine it isn't for some reason. I won't be changing any minds, and I've given all the reasons in various other threads the last week or so. JJ is a dead man walking, when is the only question.

---

This isnt directed at you, but at this visceral (hard for me to understand) reaction some Viking fans have being enraged at the org taking cover after JJM stunk up the joint in 25. 

Are they really going to risk another wasted year for Darrisaw, TJH, Jettas, Gink, Greenard et al? Were they supposed to ignore Murray shaking loose? Wanting to resurrect here? At $1.5m? With no long-term commitment to kick the tires? 

Its ok, it can be directed at me, I'm a big boy.  

For me, I'm not enraged, I'm more stupefied than anything that he's giving up already. And its not just me on this board saying it. I'm all for KOC strategizing in whatever manner he sees fit, its his ass on the line. But he needs to win with Murray, that's it. The Vikings were a frog hair away from the playoffs last year with very inconsistent and at times shitty QB play. So JJ isn't going to improve any more? He's right now the QB he's going to be forever? Just another Viking's QB carousel in a long, long line of carousels. 

No worries. Just win, baby. That's all O'Connell has to do. I'm ready to kneel at the altar of the 'QB Whisperer'*

*when its convenient

[MaroonBells]

None of this matters. Not one word if you believe in your 23 year old QB or decide you want to continue to develop him. KOC has decided not to already, after spouting things he thinks sound good but doesn't have the balls to follow through with on how organizations fail QBs. He's a hypocrite. Nothing new there because society is full of them. When you don't give your drafted young QB reps, which is what he needs desperately, what changes next year? He's in stasis, frozen in time. Not sure how many times it needs to be said. I don't know what some of you are smoking, but the JJM era as the QBOTF is over. But it seems very important for a few on the board to imagine it isn't for some reason. I won't be changing any minds, and I've given all the reasons in various other threads the last week or so. JJ is a dead man walking, when is the only question.

For someone who frequently (and correctly) laments the extremism in social media, you sure do go to the extreme here.  There a hundred degrees of possible outcomes that still have to play out. There is no black and white in this at all, just a big cloud of gray. But for the folks who wanted JJ QB1, that’s it. It’s over. Dig your own grave. We’re done. We’re taking our “nine” and going home!

I don’t know if that’s how y’all feel or not, but that’s kinda how it comes off.

[StickierBuns]

For someone who frequently (and correctly) laments the extremism in social media, you sure do go to the extreme here.  There a hundred degrees of possible outcomes that still have to play out. There is no black and white in this at all, just a big cloud of gray. But for the folks who wanted JJ QB1, that’s it. It’s over. Dig your own grave. We’re done. We’re taking our “nine” and going home!

I don’t know if that’s how y’all feel or not, but that’s kinda how it comes off.

Like I said, my thoughts are all over on various threads over the last week, I don't want to belabor those points anymore in new ones. Everyone gets to think their own thoughts on my opinions and vice versa.