Quote: @"BarrNone55" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
No. Too expensive. The cost to move from 15 to 5 would strip us of all our picks in the 3rd and 4th round. Or next year's 1st and half of those picks. We already have a top third QB--top 5 in several key metrics, including 2nd highest passer rating from a clean pocket. Keep building the OL, give Kirk a clean pocket in '21 and I'll say it's more likely we extend him again than replace him.
It's just crazy to me. What's easier to fix, the OL or finding a very good QB? 4th in yards, 11th in points with a sieve in the interior.
If it is so easy to fix the OL, why are they still trying to fix it year after year?
Quote: @"BarrNone55" said:
Kirk lead us to a 1-5 start?
The D gave up 32 a game!
Lol.
The defense actually had us a lead in the first half of the GB game despite an extremely lopsided TOP... then Kirk makes a terrible throw just before half and GB scores off it... the second half got out of hand, but our offense didn't really come alive until we were down like 16 points and we scored some garbage time points.
Week 2 the defense held us in the game against Indy, but Kirk and the offense sucked so bad they finally scores a TD late in the 4th quarter and Cousins was brutal. Not gonna blame the defense for that one.
We lost on a last second FG against a good Titans team.
Lost the Seattle game when the defense played really well and held the Seahawks to 20 points until the final minute. Our offense couldn't convert a 4th and 1 inside the 5 to seal the game so again, not really gonna blame the defense solely for that loss.
Cousins played like absolute dog shit against the Falcons.
I guess Kirk's 10 interceptions in those 6 games didn't contribute to any losses... it was all the defense. Lol
No, because almost literally everyone else is trying to already, which will make the price ridiculous. We've still got holes at RDE, OG, LT, S (assuming Peterson is still a CB) and WR3. With 5 QB's likely going in the top 13, there will be some studs falling to 14 for us, and we've got plenty of slots to use one on.
Quote: @Havoc1649 said:
Kirk Cousins is the least of our worries. Our offense is competitive and puts points on the board. They can’t play defense though.
I don’t care how good your QB is, without a defense you’re not going to the playoffs.
The secret playoff sauce isn’t the Vikings QB. We have a good enough QB to win a title. We had no pass rush and a poor defense this past year. That’s 100% why we didn’t make the damn playoffs. People talk about excuses. Blaming the lack of playoffs on Cousins is completely an excuse. It’s an excuse for a coach and GM not putting out a balanced team or adjusting their defense to an effective scheme. With a good defense, we were competitive for a championship last year. Unless our defense improves greatly, we will see the same season next year. Regardless of the flipping QB.
Oh, and the offensive line thing, something this current group has never figured out.
Quote: @Vikergirl said:
@"BarrNone55" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
No. Too expensive. The cost to move from 15 to 5 would strip us of all our picks in the 3rd and 4th round. Or next year's 1st and half of those picks. We already have a top third QB--top 5 in several key metrics, including 2nd highest passer rating from a clean pocket. Keep building the OL, give Kirk a clean pocket in '21 and I'll say it's more likely we extend him again than replace him.
It's just crazy to me. What's easier to fix, the OL or finding a very good QB? 4th in yards, 11th in points with a sieve in the interior.
If it is so easy to fix the OL, why are they still trying to fix it year after year?
It's not "easy." But it's easier than finding a QB. By about a country mile. And finding a QB who's better than Kirk Cousins? Yeah, good luck with that.
IMO, Vikings OL problems are a mix of several things: bad drafting (Elflein, Beavers), bad coaching (Clemmings, Remmers, Fusco) and bad luck (Harris, Loadholt).
Most good NFL lines are a mix of a couple high-rounders, couple mid-rounders and a couple low rounders. Vikings too have structured their lines this way, but it hasn't worked as well for them.
Vikings have been able to mine All Pros from mid, late and post drafts at several positions. The one position they haven't been able to do that is OL. Their scouting staff seems to have a blind spot there.
However, the Vikings, probably realizing their shortcomings, have now taken an OL in the 1st or 2nd round for three straight years. Probably four. They're all still very young, but that line should solidify bigly over the next couple of seasons.
And when it does? Well, over the last two seasons, no QB has been better from a clean pocket than Kirk Cousins. And don't think this is just some meaningless stat. If you can't play QB from a clean pocket, you can't play QB. It's no coincidence that the QBs who finish worst in this category (Wentz, Haskins) teams can't run away from fast enough.
Quote: @Wetlander said:
@"BarrNone55" said:
Kirk lead us to a 1-5 start?
The D gave up 32 a game!
Lol.
The defense actually had us a lead in the first half of the GB game despite an extremely lopsided TOP... then Kirk makes a terrible throw just before half and GB scores off it... the second half got out of hand, but our offense didn't really come alive until we were down like 16 points and we scored some garbage time points.
Week 2 the defense held us in the game against Indy, but Kirk and the offense sucked so bad they finally scores a TD late in the 4th quarter and Cousins was brutal. Not gonna blame the defense for that one.
We lost on a last second FG against a good Titans team.
Lost the Seattle game when the defense played really well and held the Seahawks to 20 points until the final minute. Our offense couldn't convert a 4th and 1 inside the 5 to seal the game so again, not really gonna blame the defense solely for that loss.
Cousins played like absolute dog shit against the Falcons.
I guess Kirk's 10 interceptions in those 6 games didn't contribute to any losses... it was all the defense. Lol
There's no denying that Cousins was awful the first six games of the season. Don't know why that was--communication, kubiak adjustment, could've been a lot of things.
But over the last 10 games, he was one of the best QBs in the NFL (he ranked 4th). What I'm getting at is this isn't a consistency thing. If those six games were sprinkled all over the season, that would be different. That would be a QB you couldn't count on. But whatever the problem was early on was fixed. And decidedly so.
Take your Kirk bias out of it and think about it another way: If a corner, for example, started the season with 6 straight bad games but finished with 10 straight where he was the 4th best CB in the league, would you be bullish on that corner? Of course you would.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
The defense actually had us a lead in the first half of the GB game despite an extremely lopsided TOP... then Kirk makes a terrible throw just before half and GB scores off it... the second half got out of hand, but our offense didn't really come alive until we were down like 16 points and we scored some garbage time points.
Week 2 the defense held us in the game against Indy, but Kirk and the offense sucked so bad they finally scores a TD late in the 4th quarter and Cousins was brutal. Not gonna blame the defense for that one.
We lost on a last second FG against a good Titans team.
Lost the Seattle game when the defense played really well and held the Seahawks to 20 points until the final minute. Our offense couldn't convert a 4th and 1 inside the 5 to seal the game so again, not really gonna blame the defense solely for that loss.
Cousins played like absolute dog shit against the Falcons.
I guess Kirk's 10 interceptions in those 6 games didn't contribute to any losses... it was all the defense. Lol
There's no denying that Cousins was awful the first six games of the season. Don't know why that was--communication, kubiak adjustment, could've been a lot of things.
But over the last 10 games, he was one of the best QBs in the NFL (he ranked 4th). What I'm getting at is this isn't a consistency thing. If those six games were sprinkled all over the season, that would be different. That would be a QB you couldn't count on. But whatever the problem was early on was fixed. And decidedly so.
Take your Kirk bias out of it and think about it another way: If a corner, for example, started the season with 6 straight bad games but finished with 10 straight where he was the 4th best CB in the league, would you be bullish on that corner? Of course you would.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...elog/2020/
The Vikings didn't fully understand what they had in JJ.
He didn't start the first 2 games, then goes on to perform better than an rookie WR in NFL history?
I have no defense for that.
Quote: @Mattyman said:
@ MaroonBells said:
The defense actually had us a lead in the first half of the GB game despite an extremely lopsided TOP... then Kirk makes a terrible throw just before half and GB scores off it... the second half got out of hand, but our offense didn't really come alive until we were down like 16 points and we scored some garbage time points.
Week 2 the defense held us in the game against Indy, but Kirk and the offense sucked so bad they finally scores a TD late in the 4th quarter and Cousins was brutal. Not gonna blame the defense for that one.
We lost on a last second FG against a good Titans team.
Lost the Seattle game when the defense played really well and held the Seahawks to 20 points until the final minute. Our offense couldn't convert a 4th and 1 inside the 5 to seal the game so again, not really gonna blame the defense solely for that loss.
Cousins played like absolute dog shit against the Falcons.
I guess Kirk's 10 interceptions in those 6 games didn't contribute to any losses... it was all the defense. Lol
There's no denying that Cousins was awful the first six games of the season. Don't know why that was--communication, kubiak adjustment, could've been a lot of things.
But over the last 10 games, he was one of the best QBs in the NFL (he ranked 4th). What I'm getting at is this isn't a consistency thing. If those six games were sprinkled all over the season, that would be different. That would be a QB you couldn't count on. But whatever the problem was early on was fixed. And decidedly so.
Take your Kirk bias out of it and think about it another way: If a corner, for example, started the season with 6 straight bad games but finished with 10 straight where he was the 4th best CB in the league, would you be bullish on that corner? Of course you would.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...elog/2020/
The Vikings didn't fully understand what they had in JJ.
He didn't start the first 2 games, then goes on to perform better than an rookie WR in NFL history?
I have no defense for that.
That's right. I always forget about that. Vikings didn't know, Cousins didn't know, and defenses didn't know. Lack of a preseason obviously played a big part in that.
So Vikings didn't start him, Cousins didn't target him, and so defenses didn't respect him. As a result, they were doubling Thielen and shutting down our passing game. When the trust developed with JJ everything changed. But it could've been any WR2 worth his salt to take the heat off of Thielen. The fact that it was someone as talented as JJ just sweetened the deal.
I keep delving deeper into Zack Wilson in terms of stats, injuries, Walter's semi-smear job, numerous scout reports and tape breakdowns, game stats by year..you name it. This kid is special and I am all in on moving up for him if possible. Can we get to the Bengals pick 5 if Wilson doesn't go before that?
Wilson is a Favre-esque gunslinger with more athleticism. He throws 40 yard dimes with a flick of the wrist that I haven't seen before. I'm wondering if what I am seeing is not so obvious to others that they don't see it? I know about highlight reels but just go on you tube and watch a few. These are his best throws of course but their are about 15 throws that many starting NFL QB's can't make - IMO.
His movement in the pocket and overall pocket presence is excellent and he can move when he decided to run (which I hope is not much at the next level). Seems to have the other Wilson - Russell skill of knowing how to buy time and keep a play alive.
His freshmen year he took BYU to a bowl game and was 18-18 315 yards and 4 TD"s 0 Int's = perfection as a freshmen in a bowl game.
Labrum surgery after that season which can take 9-12 months to get back 100% and a thumb injury his sophomore season was a step back in his progression no doubt.
Then last year fully healthy and it was like watching a full season of his perfect Bowl Game as a freshmen.
He is listed at 6'3 around 212lb but he doesn't look 6'3 so I am curious about that. Overall he has an athletic but slight build so could use some bulking up.
Back to my OP of this thread:
I am pleasantly surprised that 4 in 10 fellow Longshippers are in on moving up this year so I am somewhat preaching to the quire. For those 6 in 10 others who don't want to give up capital to risk getting a franchise QB I get that bigtime (90% of the time that has been my thought process). But when a QB jumps off the screen and you have a reasonable chance to get him (Mahomes) you do it regardless of Cousins and his contract. You think beyond that sunk cost investment because it has already spent/decided. You got to have a progression plan in place at every position and their is no shame in a Cousins/Wilson QB room for a year or two, is there? The combination of Cousins contract and rookie would not make our QB payroll that outrageous.
Quote from Geoff - who I defer to as a Viking expert but I do have a much different opinion on the below quote:
"Kirk's extension last season pretty much precluded them from taking a QB until 2022. If one falls to #14 that is a different conversation. But it would be a massive mistake to mortgage the future and pour more into QB now. "
I think it is a massive mistake to miss the opportunity of a franchise changing player because we have already set our path behind our current QB/team makeup. The methodical slow build or retool approach should not require blinders or the inability to deviate from a path. Let's all hope that in two or three years after Cousins that a franchise QB will be there for us to pluck when we need them. I prefer to have one sitting right behind Cousins for a year or two.
Quote: @minny65 said:
I keep delving deeper into Zack Wilson in terms of stats, injuries, Walter's semi-smear job, numerous scout reports and tape breakdowns, game stats by year..you name it. This kid is special and I am all in on moving up for him if possible. Can we get to the Bengals pick 5 if Wilson doesn't go before that?
Wilson is a Favre-esque gunslinger with more athleticism. He throws 40 yard dimes with a flick of the wrist that I haven't seen before. I'm wondering if what I am seeing is not so obvious to others that they don't see it? I know about highlight reels but just go on you tube and watch a few. These are his best throws of course but their are about 15 throws that many starting NFL QB's can't make - IMO.
His movement in the pocket and overall pocket presence is excellent and he can move when he decided to run (which I hope is not much at the next level). Seems to have the other Wilson - Russell skill of knowing how to buy time and keep a play alive.
His freshmen year he took BYU to a bowl game and was 18-18 315 yards and 4 TD"s 0 Int's = perfection as a freshmen in a bowl game.
Labrum surgery after that season which can take 9-12 months to get back 100% and a thumb injury his sophomore season was a step back in his progression no doubt.
Then last year fully healthy and it was like watching a full season of his perfect Bowl Game as a freshmen.
He is listed at 6'3 around 212lb but he doesn't look 6'3 so I am curious about that. Overall he has an athletic but slight build so could use some bulking up.
Back to my OP of this thread:
I am pleasantly surprised that 4 in 10 fellow Longshippers are in on moving up this year so I am somewhat preaching to the quire. For those 6 in 10 others who don't want to give up capital to risk getting a franchise QB I get that bigtime (90% of the time that has been my thought process). But when a QB jumps off the screen and you have a reasonable chance to get him (Mahomes) you do it regardless of Cousins and his contract. You think beyond that sunk cost investment because it has already spent/decided. You got to have a progression plan in place at every position and their is no shame in a Cousins/Wilson QB room for a year or two, is there? The combination of Cousins contract and rookie would not make our QB payroll that outrageous.
Quote from Geoff - who I defer to as a Viking expert but I do have a much different opinion on the below quote:
"Kirk's extension last season pretty much precluded them from taking a QB until 2022. If one falls to #14 that is a different conversation. But it would be a massive mistake to mortgage the future and pour more into QB now. "
I think it is a massive mistake to miss the opportunity of a franchise changing player because we have already set our path behind our current QB/team makeup. The methodical slow build or retool approach should not require blinders or the inability to deviate from a path. Let's all hope that in two or three years after Cousins that a franchise QB will be there for us to pluck when we need them. I prefer to have one sitting right behind Cousins for a year or two.
I like Wilson a LOT. But I agree with Geoff. Vikes already have a QB capable of winning a Super Bowl. Giving up a ridiculous amount of capital to take another one doesn't make us better this year and potentially makes us much worse.
And then what happens if he's Winston or Trubisky or Mariota or Wentz or Goff or Lynch or Rosen....remember, the odds say it's far more likely that he'll bust than become the QB you expect.
So now you don't have the QB you envisioned...and mortgaged your future for....AND you don't have the OL you needed to give your perfectly good QB a clean pocket...or the DE you needed...or the Safety you needed. PLUS you probably gave up your 1st next year, too. All in order to replace one of the NFL's better quarterbacks...who's only 32...and never hurt....who, over two years, has the best passer rating in the NFL from a clean pocket...but whose OL ranked 29th in pass pro...who, despite this, threw a ridiculous 25 TDs and 0 INTs in the red zone last year....and who is arguably the best deep ball passer in the game.
No. Hell no. In fact, I extend him again.
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